The Trailblazers Experience Podcast
Join us for candid conversations with remarkable women in business and entrepreneurship. We celebrate the successes of women across various fields, including digital, e-commerce, STEM, content creation, and more. Our guests share their inspiring career journeys, lessons learned , significant milestones, and the challenges they’ve faced while climbing the ladder of success. These women are true #IRLTrailblazers, and their stories will motivate and empower you.
In each episode, we explore topics like resilience, leadership, work-life balance, and the importance of community. From entry level to making bold moves in senior roles, our guests provide valuable insights into their industries. They discuss imposter syndrome, building strong teams, and revolutionizing their respective fields. Whether you’re an aspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned professional, or simply curious about the experiences of trailblazing women, this podcast is for you.
The Trailblazers Experience Podcast
EP84 Breaking the Mold: How Annabelle Built Her Career Across Continents
Annabelle shares her remarkable journey from shop floor assistant to global executive, revealing how she built her career across continents while staying true to her values and disrupting industry norms.
• Started at Lush in 1998 on London's King's Road, rising through the ranks over 26 years
• Learning to read financial accounts provided crucial insights for business strategy and market expansion
• Moved to Hong Kong to revitalize the Lush business, demonstrating courage in international career moves
ts about co-founder relationships and funding strategies
• Delivered a TEDx talk on beauty industry disruption, celebrating brands that challenge conventional standards
Chapters
00:00:00 Introduction and Annabelle's Background
00:10:00 Journey from Shop Floor to Leadership
00:20:00 Challenges in Leadership
00:30:00 Importance of Financial Literacy
00:40:00 Transition to Startup World
00:50:00 Evolving Business Landscape
01:00:00 Trailblazer Takeaway Tips
01:10:00 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans
Connect with Annabelle on LinkedIn and check out her TEDx talk on disrupting beauty industry norms.
Find Annabelle :
Linkedin : https://www.linkedin.com/in/annabelle-baker/
TedX : https://youtu.be/iGIXPAtIyOw?si=NOMiTzmysVlqOdRQ
Listen : to the audio version Apple Spotify .Amazon Music Google Podcasts
Watch and subscribe to my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@Thetrailblazersexperience
Follow Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/thetrailblazersexperience/
Welcome to another episode of the Trailblazers Experience Podcast, the podcasts where we have candid conversations with women sharing their amazing career journeys. This woman is a powerhouse who needs no introduction. She's a TEDx speaker, co-founder of businesses, has grown leading businesses from zero to a hundred in terms of revenue, space. And we're here to have a conversation that only just not only talks about her career spanning continents and industries, but going from a large business toward the startup and also what she's doing now, which just shows it's never too late to reinvent yourself. Annabelle, welcome to the podcast.
Annabelle:Thank you so much for having me, Natolo. I really, really appreciate it.
TrailblazersExperience:Great to kind of get into this conversation. I know, because it's an interesting conversation. Because you could even title the podcast from corporate to startup, from Hong Kong to London to pool. It's your journey has been so interesting. You've done such amazing things. Your LinkedIn just reads in terms of achievements. But for the woman in the audience who is looking at your profile, looking you at you and saying, How did I get there? Can we just talk about your journey, how you started, and what led you to get into retail in the first place?
Annabelle:Yeah, so actually, you well, we can blame my mum. I don't know if blame's the right way. We can credit my mum for my journey into retails. Um, I grew up in London. Most of my friends kind of ended up, I don't know how it happened. There's like a summer where everybody ended up working on the King's Road. It was just a place to be, I guess. If you grew up in South West London, that's kind of where everybody ended up working for a summer. And I was working at Jane Asher's cake shop, which is just off the corner of the King's Road, but my mum had a flower shop there. And she'd come home with these things in a in the fridge, which like in a yellow bag and a white pot. And she's like, Don't eat them. And I was like, What on earth have you put in the fridge that I can't eat? Like, that's a bit of an odd thing. And she's like, Oh no, they're face masks from this new, like, odd shop that's open on the King's Road. And I think you should go and try and get a job there. And so I did. And like that was lush, and that was 1998. And yeah, it was a huge amount of fun. Back there, you were just kind of, you know, the Kings Road was in that bit of that vibe phase, which is kind of a bit of a shame. It's a bit revitalized these days, but you know, it's a bit of a shame to see where it's gone, to be honest, like historically. But at that time, you had like, you know, the likes of Madonna and like all these like really super famous people just walking around um that shop. So it was just a super buzzy place to be, regardless of the retail that you ended up working in. And then yeah, Lush was this super new, very different. And the smell, obviously, was probably one of the most iconic things, aside from everything, you know, people coming in thinking, does it look like cheese? Which is always super fun. But yeah, so that kind of like got me into retail at a very early days, but I wasn't actually intending to go into retail. That wasn't the plan. I was going to study geography at university. I knew this is at a really young age because my grandfather was a farmer and he kind of really worked on that organic farming principles at a really young. And so I was super passionate about um human geography, actually, in particular. And I was like, I'm going to go and work for the UN and be a humanitarian officer. That was the dream job. And then, yeah, then I ended up working at Lush, and then you got to see some of the real-world practice a like a business could have on some of the things that I was super passionate about in terms of, you know, human rights and animal welfare and environmental protection. And so I guess the love of all of those things was kind of entrenched within a business that I kind of got, I sort of joined and then yeah, grew, I guess, from there.
TrailblazersExperience:That's so interesting. So you're the classic, I started off on the shop floor and rose through the ranks, which do you know it's still something to be proud of because we do have the juxtaposition of people who change businesses every two years and through there they grow. But you were the classic, started on the shop floor, grew through the ranks. And when you were talking about King's Road, I was there actually a few weeks ago, and I'm always trying to see how retail has changed and what what the landscape is going to be. And it's interesting where it's still a lot of, you know, activewear brands, things going on, more boutique-y style, but probably the buzz that was there in the night is is maybe trying to come back. Time will tell where it actually ends.
Annabelle:I agree. I mean, they definitely have done quite a lot of land redevelopment projects up like towards Peter Jones, and then obviously anthropology took a really big side across Waitros, and that kind of like really helped redevelop the area. But you've still got shops that were there, like really small independent stores that were there when I worked on the shop on the King's Road in 1998, and they're still there. And how amazing is that to see in retail, especially in today's world where you know, so many of these retailers just get bolstered off, business rates, you know, the realities of running retail is hard work. So super impressive to see some of those businesses still alive on the King's Road.
TrailblazersExperience:Oh, yeah, definitely. We we love the independence because that's what actually gets you there. It's a meetup point, you know, it's a landmark, it's it what gets you going. But going back to your career, so started off at Lush, which, you know, has been the pinnacle and sort of defined your career till now. You've done lots of things. You've lived in different countries, which, you know, for some is a very big feat to move your whole family or your whole ecosystem to go to another country. When was that a pivotal moment? So you started on the shop floor, rose through the ranks. At what point did you think, right, I could actually do this and go to another country? Because there are women out there who are thinking, you know, job market is tough. Do I just look in the current market as it is, or do I consider other countries, other territories? Was there like a checklist that you went through to say, you know, this is something I want to do? Or once again, serendipity or leaning into spontaneity, which one was it?
Annabelle:Probably, well, I think I was very determined I was going to work abroad. So I knew that pretty, pretty early on. And at the time, it was 2012, just when I when I moved to Hong Kong, my husband had been working on the Olympics in London, and there was this whole conversation about getting on the Olympic train. So the Olympic train basically, you know, you kind of do back-to-back Olympics. And it's like, are we going to follow you and go on the Olympic train? And I was like, well, Rio's next. That sounds great. And then he was like, Yeah, but Soji is before Rio. And I was like, Soji, Olympics in Soji, amazing in Russia. Um, but at the time, Lush had partners in Russia anyway. So, you know, and this whole kind of way of working remotely just didn't exist. So the idea that I could have worked in Russia for Lush was, yeah, that wasn't going to happen. So it would have been a I would have left the business at that point. And then I had spent the better half of probably the two years prior, maybe three before that, working really with the international markets, whether or not that was supporting markets or looking at new market entries, so for places like India or Brazil, and then also looking at where partners wanted to sell back their businesses maybe to the group. And then I would look over that and support the MA transaction. And then often they're the partners that actually lead the businesses locally. So then you have to recruit a new local team effectively to kind of like be put in and then run the business kind of future forward and then kind of handhold them a bit. We'd had a business out in Hong Kong, and actually I had spent a considerable amount of time in the prior two years looking at a lot of the competing businesses in Hong Kong and particularly L'Occitan and how well they did out of the market. So just taking a kind of quick step back, one of the things I was trained on very early days of my time at Lush and specifically working with a particular senior individual there was going through accounts in meticulous detail. So I'm not a finance person that I am not an accountant, that's not my train bag. But basically, I was kept giving these tasks of like, go through these accounts and tell me what you see. And I'd sort of go through the accounts and then be like, oh, this is what I see. And then he'd be like, no, no, like this, look at it again. And then it was kind of through time and kind of continuation, you kind of really start to understand what's sort of in accounts and how much information about a company actually exists online just publicly, if you if you start looking. But it was from there that I had spent a lot of time looking at the sales volume of Loxitown out of Hong Kong. And they at the time they were getting around two million sterling out of each retail outlet from what we could see on the accounts. And in comparison, that just wasn't anywhere near what Lush was getting out from a retail store. And the businesses were were quite comparable at that point. So I was like, there's a huge opportunity here. We're obviously missing it. Let's have a look at it. And then we had a partner there, and their part their license came to an end, but it was there was a bit of a legal case towards the end of that. Um, and then I had to basically step in and step in at a point where there was the whole business was gonna collapse, basically, effectively. We'd had a partnership, like a franchise agreement there, all the stores, all the stuff, everything was gonna go, and then I was gonna have to pick it up, basically, and then reopen the business kind of from scratch. And I basically, as soon as I'd sort of seen this potentially come onto the table a few months before, I was like, no, I want to go and do that. I want to go and do Hong Kong. My husband had never been to Hong Kong, so I basically signed the two of us up to like go and move abroad to a country we're going, yeah, he'd never been to, and just hope when he got there, he didn't hate the choice I had just made for the two of us, which was wild when you think about it. I mean, what what a legend. Just kind of be like, sure, let's go. Um, and so yeah, so we we we we went. And I I remember at the time the CEO market said to me, You sure you didn't want to go to Brazil? So I'd spent probably about two years working on Brazil and I had done my MBA as well, um Imperial College. And when I was doing my my MBA, I actually supported Brazil, it was one of the markets we ended up going to as a class, basically, on our assignments. So I actually spent quite a bit of time there. But I knew in my heart I always wanted to be in Asia. You know, when you just like there's something intrinsically about like there's a cultural connection some ways. Like I when I grew up anecdotally, when I was at primary school, for some reason I was in a really small primary school class of like 10 kids because they had to divide the class. They had one really big class at 30, and then they just put some why 10 of us into a separate class. And and there was like six kids that were from Japan. And my best friend ended up being Aya, and she was, yes, from Japan, and I just became obsessed with everything that was Japanese at a very, very young age. And so I'd always had this dream that I was going to go to Asia, and then my brother beat me to it and moved to Japan before I had a chance to. So I was like, right, as soon as the opportunity came available, I was like, right, let's go. And so, so we did. So I think in that in that space, it was really about I saw an opportunity and I wanted it. And so I just put myself out there and was like, can I go? And the business said yes. And so I was like, right then, let's let's go. So we we took a an investment from from the group um to make it a highly owned market. And we went. And I think I was back and forth there like literally every week for about three months. So I can't even tell you how exhausting that is flying economy, because when you're when you're back and forth every every other week, I remember almost crying. I got back on a Friday and was told I needed to fly back literally the Monday. And I had the same flight crew that flew in with me that flew back and they're like, Oh, hi, you're back again. This is very psychic. And I was like, Oh yeah, no, I know. Like, I'll just become part of the um part of your crew. And so you just you're just sort of like constantly on that pace. But I think as soon as I um had decided we, you know, we were going, it was it was great fun to then start looking at like, okay, let's go find somewhere to live and do all of those things which, you know, ordinarily could be daunting for someone. But um at the time was great. And I think I do take in the fact that I was in a privileged position, in the essence that one, my company was moving me, which is different, I think, to sort of taking a leap out and looking for something independently of your own business. And two, at that point we didn't have kids. And moving with children is completely different to moving, like to being like just a couple, because there's so many other considerations you you just have to have. And I've moved back with children and I understand those in a in a completely different way. So, but I would say that looking for opportunities globally is one of the massive benefits of today's modern world and particularly post-COVID. So, one of the people that I have been working with just recently in marketing, she's based in India. She'd actually been over here on a uh studying, and then she had basically um left to go back home to India, but she'd reached out to me having seen me do another like talk um and wanted to work with me. And so I've been working with her, and she's fab. And like you just think you don't actually have to even be geographically now in the place, anyway. You can just operate in a much more globalized fashion, and what an amazing opportunity that is, not just for yourself, but for other people or people you could connect yourself with and cultures and understanding things in different ways, but also for the future, for our future generations of children coming up, what that will mean for them when they come into the workspace. And it's not so limited only by the current territory of which you are resident in.
TrailblazersExperience:Yeah, I mean, there's so many things I want to unpick there. Just four things stood out for me. So the first thing of working with a senior leader who said, read the numbers because they tell the story of a business, that resonates so much with me. And that is make or break for anyone who wants to rise within the ranks within a business. If you understand the financials, if you're cool with the finance guys, you understand the story of a business and also understand your competitors when you're trying to make decisions about whether to expand in that market or whether to leave a market, or another thing which a very uh famous non-exec said to me was there's no such thing as cannibalization. You know, he truly believes that uh they can be more popcorn brands, more coffee shops, more soap brands, more perfume brands. He says there is more than enough space for lots of businesses to exist as long as you have a customer to serve that. So that was really interesting. And then the second bit about, you know, moving countries. I love the fact that you said, well, you know, Asia was a your friend, and then obviously your best friend is from Japan, then your brother moving there. That also helps, you know, in a way, if you've got like that circle to lean into. Because my family's um some of some of them have been based in Europe, some have been based in Asia. But I remember one of them saying, if you move to Australia, we're we're not gonna follow you because it's just it's like a long time, it's very expensive. And then also it's just a long haul. So that decision of, okay, in order for my close circle to be able to reach me, is it a commutable distance, you know, in terms of flight, seven hours, not 20 hours and and four grand. But you I think that's really important, isn't it? To to lean into it, feels like I know you said finance, you're not a finance person and it's not your strength, but it feels like that's one of the things with your MBA attached to it that help you to be able to navigate operating and managing a business, which is essentially what you were there to do.
Annabelle:Yeah, I mean, definitely, dude. I think the discipline, I mean, still today, I go to bed reading people's accounts.
TrailblazersExperience:Like that, that is, I'll see what's in the headlines and then I'll go on just to say, right, what are the financials actually saying? I even listen to podcasts that talk about, you know, the eBIT and the operating property, the investments, because I want to understand what's actually happening here.
Annabelle:Yeah. And it's so and it's so fascinating. Like, even just from like, I was co-working Finis There, which is like a they've just opened a new co-working space here in Pool, and I was co-working in their space the other day. And a friend of mine actually modeled for them out in Canada. And I was just like, oh, this is super fascinating. I don't really know much about this company, I'll just go and read their accounts. So then I just got lost in their accounts, like, and I just was like, oh, it's just it's so interesting, and there's so much information, especially today, and also, you know, when you when you look at the ability to power that now with AR. So even if you're not financially completely literate, you just take that information out, you put it into Chat BTPT, and you just go, give this to me in layman terms. Explain this to me in a way conceptually that I can understand. And it and it does. And so even if there's like language in changes, you can find out quite considerable amounts of money. And that's actually super interesting. So, like if you're someone, I think particularly important if you're an employee of a company. I know, I know this is not something like a lot of people think about, but if you're an employee of a company, you absolutely should be going to company's house and you should be looking at your company's accounts. Not just their company accounts, you should be reading their articles as association, you should be reading any changes to their articles of association. Why? Because if you want to be a future part of this business and you're banking your career on this company, you need to understand if it's in a healthy position or not. And the only way to really understand that if for you, if you don't have access to people's cash flow, is actually going into the accounts and actually looking at them what changes are being made there for the company. It's it's completely fascinating what you can find out. So that would be one of the things that I'm glad I was taught early on as definitely something I will be teaching my children if you're going to be an employee of an entity. And I think it's something that should be taught more, much more readily, not just in MBA practice, but you know, during like when you're studying at A levels or, you know, really understanding some of the basic metrics of finance and finance accounting, just even for your own self, let alone, you know, it within the context of a business. As we know, businesses are very fragile in today's modern environment. And you could find yourself caught out if you don't actually understand what's happening within a company.
TrailblazersExperience:Oh, yeah. And you know, if for a lot of people, it that is the case. You know, when you hear of businesses filing for bankruptcy or insolvency or having to make redundancies, a lot of them say, Well, we didn't know. We thought the business was doing well because revenue was this. But actually, if you looked at the numbers, you would see the story once again of what was happening. But yeah, we we hope, especially for those coming out, which is why podcasts like this are really good for you to say that is an outrailblazer tip there, you know, understand the financial health of the company or the people who you're working with. That is a really good one. Annabelle. So you're a woman in executive leadership. What challenges have you faced? Obviously, you've told us the story of rising through the ranks, but we do know they are challenges being a leader. What would you say have been perhaps the biggest talent challenges that you have faced and how have you navigated them with resilience and clarity?
Annabelle:I think potentially it's not, it wasn't the most important, like the biggest challenge I faced, but something that stuck with me, guess one thing from a very early time. When I started working at Lush on the shop floor, I went through that really awkward phase of having severe acne. So I was 16, severe acne, you know, in a cosmetic shop might not be the greatest combination, but I'd already been working there for a few months. I was working on the shop floor, and a customer had come in and made a comment to my manager that I was not suitable to be working in a cosmetic shop because of my skin. And my manager stuck up for me and was like, no, she's she's great, she knows what she's talking about, she's well trained, you know. But you realize in those moments how vulnerable you are to something that's so, especially for women, you're so inherently sometimes judged based on how you look. And I'm sure maybe that would have been the similar case for someone, you know, who is a man as well, like with acne in a cosmetics environment. Maybe that would have been the same. But then at the end, towards the end of my journey, alash, I had had had heard a comment that someone had made about me some from previous years who not worked with me for 10 or 15 years, but had said that I was I wouldn't I was attractive. And that is why I rose through the business. And that's why I had a successful career in the company, was because of the way that I looked. And I just saw how interesting is it. I started my journey basically being told I was not attractive enough to work on the short floor because I had acne, or like, you know, to then end, you know, sort of towards the end of my career, then to hear that people would make a comment about the fact that the only reason why I did well in the company was because they deemed me to be attractive. And I think that level of judgment, and it came from another woman, both cases, that level of judgment is so damaging. And I just I think that in then when you think about a challenge, so like, you know, like surely it's enough about just turning up and doing your job. But no, we're faced with all these other challenges that get thrown at you, which is basically, you know, do you aesthetically look up, you know, live up to whatever it is that someone's got a predisposed mind of what you should be? But don't be too crissy.
TrailblazersExperience:Don't be too attractive. Is they started off with a negative comment. So it wasn't like she's risen through the ranks and she's done all these amazing things, you know, she's launched markets, she's driven sales, etc. It was negative because of the way she looks and this, and you sort of think, seriously. And honestly, Annabelle, it's uh it's it's great that you talk about that because a lot of times as as women, I've also heard comments before saying, well, you've done this, however, I'm happy for you, or you've done this, however, that however the negativity already is the fire that you've poured on that actually you didn't really acknowledge or are not acknowledging this moment or achievement. That's actually the thing that's fueling the flame. And I mean, interesting. And there are a lot of people who are battling with acne now, you know, through primary school.
Annabelle:I still have, like, like you know, like for definitely post-kids, and then obviously you come off like I wasn't on contraceptive, like the pill anymore, that massively changes your hormone structure. And then obviously, like I'm I don't know if I'm perimenopause, but you're gonna get into that phase, which is joyful. Um, and so you know, your hormones shift again, and you know, your skin doesn't behave. I'm not one of those girls or people that have had perfect skin, and I still don't to this day. So it's kind of like you, yeah, you just you're constantly living with with that. Um, it doesn't go away. But I would say that that definitely is one of the sort of challenges. And I think then the other one, probably major for me, is probably becoming a mum. I think you cannot, like for me, I just couldn't underestimate the impact that was going to have on me. And I it's difficult in Hong Kong. The um the the laws there in terms of maternity leave are better than the US. It's it's typically around 10 to 12 weeks, but it's still not UK system in terms of like, even though the pay obviously is not great in the UK, it's still not, it's still not great. And after I had my my first son, I actually I had sepsis, so I wasn't medically in a great space, but I literally came back to work three and a half months after I had my son. Think, and it was for a financial reason only. There was no other reason to come back to work at really at that point, but financially and needed to. And so, but you just you realize how much pressure that puts on not just you, but people around you as well, and and teams, and actually the good thing is that Lust changed its maternity policy. So when I had my second child, I could actually take double the length of time off, fully paid, which was great. And and so that that was just, you know, even just in that 18-month period between baby one, number one, baby number two, how much of an impact that could potentially have. But I think that shift into being a mum and also being an MD, I just had no idea how that was really going to impact me. And I, you know, I I don't know that I navigated it entirely with Grace. I think it was kind of a bit of a like, I'm sure I've made some mistakes along the way. But it's I don't know that there was enough support, like potentially, or I knew where to get support from the right people. Um, and I'd even had a comment about maternity leave being holiday. You know, when you're like that's a life. I was like, what? How is you know, when you're just sort of in that headspace of like one, I was like recovering from sepsis. So like I was like, I was seriously critically unwell. And then I was like, but I don't feel like it's a holiday. I feel I've never felt more exhausted in my entire life, like just literally, and you and and that kind of comment, you know, of just being like, oh, maternity leave, it's a holiday. I was like, I was like, wow, okay. So it just it kind of shows the difference, I think, of where, you know, where people's understanding maybe had come. And, you know, and it also made me reflect of like how empathetic, how connected was I to people who had been and had babies before me, and really what they were going through during that process, male or female, you know, when they become parents. And, you know, I I don't know. I I did reflect on it at that point and think maybe there's more things I could have done as a leader. Um, and I just hadn't really fully understood that journey, I guess.
TrailblazersExperience:I think, oh, you know, kudos to you for sharing the story. A lot of the time as a leader, or even as a woman, you do the best you can with what you have at the time. You know, when you think in hindsight of all the things you could do differently or how times have changed, policies are different. At that moment of time, you were doing the best you can with what you had and making those decisions. And a lot of the time that's what it's going to be. I think as a woman as well, there they are no wrong decisions. You know, they are just decisions that you make based on your circumstance, whether it's financial, personal, physical, professional, all of them. And you make the decision and you move in that direction and you keep iterating as as you go along. That's why I think it's it's important uh to share that for sure.
Annabelle:No, I appreciate it. I I just but yeah, it's uh it's definitely something that I think needs more continued support for for parents, and and I think that's why you know the parental leave system here in the UK is obviously significantly better and it will continue to improve, you know, for future generations too, which is exciting.
TrailblazersExperience:Let's talk about your TEDx talk. I'm I'm in awe of TEDx speakers because it is on my bucket list to do one. How did that come about? Tell me about it and for the audience who haven't listened to it, why that particular powerful message and story.
Annabelle:So Sarah Ashman, who is the CEO of Wolf Ollins, so it's a it's a really big consumer agency. She saw me talk at Web Summit the previous year. So I was on Portugal. Yeah. Uh no, we weren't in Portugal. Where were we? It was 23. I feel like it was somewhere in Italy. Oh, maybe it was Portugal. Could have been Lisb Lisbon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Maybe it was. I I completely forget. It's a bit of a haze, but I had gone through this kind of like back-to-back sessions of doing keynote speakers and you know, and all and web summit. But I remembered that I met her and her one of her colleagues, and they'd stopped me outside the afterwards, after on the main stage, and she was like, Oh my god, I love your trainer. So I wore these bright, I found the green flash, the apple green from like Nike. They released them on the Nike on the sneakers app, and then you couldn't get them. And so then I had to pay for like a third party, you know, I don't know where you you crazy lady. Yeah, but I loved them so much. And so I was in all black, and then these very, very bright electric green sneakers. So I guess I stood out on that on that big stage. So anyway, they stopped me afterwards, and then I yeah, I connected with Sarah and she was fab and you know, a great supporter of other women um across the business. And she reached out to me last year. They'd actually had she does she does a TEDx event every year, basically, and it was the 10th year of her doing TEDx. And so she had reached out to me and said they'd actually had a speaker drop out last minute. So someone who was meant to do a TEDx had dropped out, and she sort of asked me, I think it was like a week or so beforehand, would I step in? And so um I was like, sure, why not? I'm always one of those people who's just like, I'll do it, I'll do it. And at the time, you you know, you you know that it's important, and it was in a small crowd, it's very intimate space for a TEDx, and you know that it's important, but I'm just one of those people who sometimes like I'll just say yes and then I can't work it too. Panic afterwards, I'll panic afterwards and then make it happen. But I really wanted to talk about disruption within beauty, one because I guess that's been a part of my space with with Lush and being part of a company that is very disruptive in the industry. But secondly, I think Lush is not unique in that sense of like there's plenty of disruptors in the beauty industry, and I think that's really great. One to be able to talk about, two to shout about, because it is hard work trying to disrupt a space. Like, cannot like even from my small experience of kind of start up with fragrance, I it's really hard to change the status quo, and also you know, to kind of maybe have like, unless you are like Rihanna and you are this kind. Kind of powerhouse, you've got a name and you kind of can yeah, you've already got the kind of the f the following to basically to join charge. But I think it's so important to continue one to see these disruptors in the beauty space. Obviously, when Fenty came out with you know 40 shades of foundation setting that new standard in beauty, it was almost like you can't do foundation unless you've got 40 shades. How amazing a change in the cosmetics industry was that? And then, you know, you see these other formats of like Glossier growing from being a community into like a you know, and then into a brand. And I still think regardless of where they end up, I still think that's a super fascinating journey. And then you're seeing, you know, this huge trend around, you know, not wearing makeup and even, you know, what we talked about earlier about the pressure I think for women to be seen as attractive, like, you know, and then you've got people like Pamela Anderson, who probably was at her epitome of career, hugely sexualized and you know, like very highly made up to rejecting that kind of modern standard, or standard we should call it. That's probably not the right word to use, but that view and being like, no, I want to be myself and this is who I am. And look at her today. How cool is that? I mean, it's just I mean, I personally am a little bit in love with the love story there with with Pamela Anderson and um her what is her name? Co-star.
TrailblazersExperience:Liam and Liam Nielsen, yeah, yeah, especially for the way he lost his wife as well, isn't it?
Annabelle:No, so heartbreaking. But I just I love how authentically connected she is with herself and showing up in that space of being brave enough to be like, because how many women, you know, to be brave enough to be like, I'm not wearing, I'm not gonna wear makeup, or I'm gonna wear very little makeup and I'm showing up in this space, or you know, Andy McDonald, like, you know, embracing her grey hair, which shouldn't feel radical. There's not radical, but it feels like it in some regards, because obviously, you know, we're sort of pummeled with the you know, the adverts from the big companies around, you know, cover your grays, and you know, that's not the standard, this is the standard, don't. And I think it takes some really brave, courageous moves to seize things in the in a different light. And I and I hope that that not only continues, but we as cons both consumers and parts of brands actually continuing to champion and like elevate the voices of those people who are trying to break through things in a different way because it would be so deathly dull. And I think that's definitely true. You know, some things have become incredibly deathly dull. Um, it's the same brand in so many different formats, and then you're just like, is there anything different going on here? Like, you know, and so yeah, I think it's exciting to see I continue to like I'm looking forward to championing all the brands that are going to come out in the future years that are gonna continue to disrupt the norms and challenge how things should be for Status Quo. And I hope that for myself, I can continue to be a part of that, whether that's part of the startup world or part of a bigger brand that's also challenging those formats. I I yeah, I think it's something that I'm quite passionate about.
TrailblazersExperience:Do you know disruption? I think authenticity is what comes through, isn't it? Allowing people to be the best they can be, no matter what they look like, where they've come from. And those are the brands that are winning at the moment. If we see the the tragic stories of certain retailers, but actually the shining stars of brands that are accelerating, you know, like you said with Glossy Built From Community, or whether it's activewear brands or alcohol brands or non-alcohol brands, it's I think it's a really great time. It's it's a shift in terms of especially when I speak to my kids saying, Well, what brands are you interested in? And it's completely different brands, you know, that I that I'm discovering online, offline, and it's a it's a good space where disruption is is a good sign of authenticity and actually understanding that many brands can exist in different term term ways, but that unique selling proposition I think is is key.
Annabelle:No, it definitely definitely is. And I think being authentic is especially in today's world, which you are kind of, you know, even content-wise, we're using a lot of like AI platforms to help form some of the things that we're doing. And, you know, really, I think that that's a great power pass. It can really power you as a person to be more efficient, but also kind of not dulling down and like blanding yourself. Like something actually quite interesting we talked about at last for a period of time. You know, we we went, I think businesses went through a phase of blanding. Like, you know, everything just became very vanilla. I was like, what happened? Like it's just like there's no punch, there's no maybe night the 90s was so kind of like more grunge, it was more punk, and there was more like energy a little bit there. But I've I've I think there was a time span where everything just went very uniformed and like just very bland. And I think we're coming back into a time span again of like very colourful, very kind of energetic. And that that often brings more disruption anyway, you know, whether or not you look at um what's the olive oil brand called? Is it Grazy, Graz, Grassi, it beans in the G. It's in basically what is a like plastic rubberized bottle versus like the in the green bottle. I've forgotten what it's called. No idea. Begins with the G, but they they like really hitting the olive oil um industry and they're kind of disrupting that space. You've got like the gin in the oil can, I can't remember what that brand is called, but you've got there there's constant vibes of of seeing you know brands in different spaces and you know, and it's great is good here.
TrailblazersExperience:That's yeah, fresh is best, and so on and so forth. Drizzle and sizzle, olive oil. There you go.
Annabelle:Drizzle and sizzle olive oil. Yeah, but they stand out, they stand out on the on the retail space, they and that wins, especially right now, where everything is kind of very like, you know.
TrailblazersExperience:Also, do you know? I think it's also brands where um they're letting their creative team not go through so many routes of sign-off where they're saying, be creative, be of the moment, be in the consumer moment, cultural moments, and seize the day. I say it with was it was it last year? It feels like it was last year, it was with the whole demure campaign where the person went went viral. And the brands that seize the moment and turn it into something positive, which obviously helped the person who posted it and so on and so forth. And then there were six weeks later where I was receiving emails, I won't name the brand, with subject lines where they were leaning into that. And I was like, mate, you've missed the train. This is like, you know, you weren't in the moment. And that probably is because they needed sign-off, they needed, you know, to have some perfect creative to go with it. And the ones that just said, right, we're going with the audience, we're going with the moment, are the ones that actually that built up from that.
Annabelle:I definitely agree. We had a nice bit of an example of that. We, you know, Saltburn, which was a movie that came out on Prime, right? So one of the PRs um in the team that basically said that she wanted to do Salt Bomb, which was basically a bath bomb based on that bath scene. So um, like a salty mansion. And um, and it was such a thing where it was like, you know, at first it was like, you know, kind of conversation. I'm like, oh, are you serious? You really want to do that? Okay. So we basically took it um to the MD, and he was like, Well, if you're willing to stake your career on animal use, you it's your problem if it if it doesn't. And I was like, sure, let's just go for it. Like, who knows where it'll where it will go. But you knew it's one of those cultural moments. Um, and the copy, I cannot remember her name, Georgia, I think was her name who wrote the copy, and it was basically come and relax, or vice versa. I mean, salute copy gold. Um, and you could get away with it with a um within within Lush, but it was actually the copy that ended up going viral on TikTok. So the e-com team had done an amazing job to make sure that the pages were shareable directly into social. So people were literally just being like, oh my god, like and then the team who were doing collabs had kind of like created this great photo shoot recreating the scene from the film. So it just looked it, you know, it was 10 out of 10 in terms of speed. It was like a week basically to kind of get that um out the door, but it was and it's exactly that, you know, find get those cultural moments and move on them super fast, and that means, yeah, not heavy layers of approval and so forth, like through for a business, um, to be able to move as as fast as you can. I mean, I think the cat's eye campaign, although won't have been a response to American American Eagle, the timing was absolutely spot on.
TrailblazersExperience:Yeah, and also a good way to reinvent Gap, which is you know, they've they've gone through some trials and tribulations. Yeah. Tapping into that new audience is as well. Genius.
Annabelle:Agree. And it that's what I also love, actually, to be honest. Brands don't die. People kind of can like die within, but brands don't actually really die. They can always be reinvented. And I think that there's always an opportunity for a comeback. And actually, sometimes people love nothing more than a comeback.
TrailblazersExperience:Let's talk about you, the brand. So you're now no longer at Lush, you've done some amazing things and a great story there. I think lots of tip bits of information you've shared, which are helping our women founders or people looking for next tips, I think is really good. You've now embraced yourself in the startup world. Why has that been important to you and why is that an important next step in terms of going that direction?
Annabelle:I think I was always intrigued about what it would look like to set up my own business. And then obviously, when you're part of a business that's so entrepreneurial and the founders are so heavily involved, it's hard not to kind of be in that sphere of like, oh, what would it be like if I set something up? And what would I set up if I did something? And I think I'd always been challenged a lot by my friends being like, you really should have your own business, like you you should do something. I just hadn't had like, you know, that burning idea where someone goes, that's exactly the product I want to create, and I, you know, want to do that. And then I was contacted by someone over LinkedIn who was um looking for someone to join in within the fragrance space. And then did I have an opinion? And I actually did have, and when I thought about it, I was like, no, I do have an opinion about fragrance. I hate the commitment culture that exists around fragrance in the fragrance industry, like large sizes, this whole signature scent piece, the idea that you're just one thing and that you'll buy into that, and that you, the consumer, will like be quite happy with the fact that you're buying a product that's going to last you 18 months and you haven't even decided whether or not you really like it or not. Like that doesn't exist in any other cosmetics category. I have no, and it just didn't, it's it doesn't make sense to me as a consumer, and also I was just never one of those people who had a signature scent. I like lots of different things. I wanted to switch it up and I wanted to create a brand that was way more about like fluidity, freedom, but also enabling fragrance to be part of your own self-identity, but also empowering that identity through, you know, who you choose to be on that day, in the same way that we look at whether that's fashion or makeup or any other extension of accessories that we use in our life to make us feel like, yeah, we're got together. We're we're smashing this today. And I think that's that was kind of a big part of it. And I've learned a lot on the journey. I've learned what I like, what I don't like as part of as part of that journey. And I and I think there's a huge difference, I think, which people don't realise with startups, or I hadn't maybe naively realised with startups in terms of like having funding early on versus not having funding and bootstrapping. Like those two experiences are hugely different. And, you know, how do you want to grow your business and your brand? Do you want to grow it via Meta? Like, do you want to play to play, you know, do drive that whole company through there? Or do you want to build an organic business, build a community, and then leverage that community through pay channels? All of those things start becoming, you know, what do you value? What how do you even want to kind of build a company? And then, and then I think there's a kind of realization of like, oh, okay, I I actually do know what I would want to do if the business was 100% myself. And then you start thinking about, okay, well, how does that, how does that kind of look in its current context and is that right for me or or not? And so I think for startup founders, what I wished I had kind of maybe had a bit more knowledge of or maybe just a bit more awareness of is like, which is obvious. But I think when you think about the people you involve in the business early days, is so important. Like I knew that when I started up Hong Kong, like the Hong Kong part of the business for Lush, those first 10 hires are so pivotal. But I think in startup world, it's almost like the first one, just number one, like the first person other than yourself. That that's all that matters. Anyone else. If you can't get your team to function, if you can't function as more than one person, if you're gonna be co-founders or whatever that might be, like you know, however you work that, that's kind of like number one. I I swe I went and um I was at a talk recently with the founders from Button Up Box, which are like the guys that have built the which is like 210 million ARR now, like as a which is incredible business.
TrailblazersExperience:Do you remember a few years back? It's probably after um COVID and the pandemic, where people said um subscription boxes, this is the end of it, people are not interested in it anymore. Obviously, a few brands had to then probably their sales went down, but it was more about changing and understanding how people were eating at the time. So to see that actually they are still successful is really good. And actually, there are more subscription brands um out there. Wasn't it at all?
Annabelle:It was a small intimate, like one of our investors had invited them along to talk in a morning session, it's hugely beneficial, but you realize the partnership that they had was so integral to the starting point of their journey. It was like they were best friends, they were kind of like, you know, the first thing they did on a Monday morning was spend two hours with each other, they worked, you know, they were in the same geographic location, they were building that network and that relationship because it was- Did they grow up together? No, they basically, I think they met at Goldman Sachs or one of those financial institutions. I I think it's Goldman. Yeah. But I could be wrong. And I think they they just had this partnership that felt natural, authentic, you could kind of bind to, but equally as well, hugely supportive during times where you will be, you will be no more stressed and stretched than you will during a startup. So you've got like really got to sort of like, you know, in those really dark hours of when you're like, why am I doing this to myself? What am I doing? You need a person there, you know, who's who's gonna be the other side of that who can lift you and you can lift each other. When you're looking for a co-founder, that would be what you've got to look for. It's got to be that partnership together where it's like, we we know we can work together well, we know who we are as individuals, and we know that we're complementary in our skill set. And we also know that when we're under pressure, we can support, take off from the other, add in when needed. And those are the sorts of things that you kind of really want to. So I think there's a whole magnitude of like how you can set up a business if you're a single founder, like yourself, like you know, doing the business yourself versus having a co-founder, and then on top of those, those decisions, or multiple co-founders, if you take Larsh as an example, there's seven of them, eight. And then you've got, and then do I take investment in capital early on if you can get it, you know, and then the reality of being a woman and being like, well, only VCs only give two percent of the funds to women anyway. So if you're gonna have a co-founder, you're bootstrapped anyway. You're bootstrapped unless you've got a guy on the board. But how difficult is that conversation? The reality of like, if you've got and even I remember Emily Weiss said from Glossier, no one would fund Glossier. Oh, until she Yeah, until she had like a female founder, like female, didn't she put in a million and then she got the rest of the the funding? And that it is so eye-opening, but it is something that you need to understand, especially if you're a female founder. You know, I hate to say it, but yeah, if you if you want to get capital raise, you probably you probably want a male co-founder alongside of you.
TrailblazersExperience:Yeah. And as I guess you know what, everything that you've said is taking the emotion out of it. Because talking about these two co-founders who met at Goldman Sachs, they had worked together before and had become friends afterwards. I think there's a a lot of the stories that I'm hearing are similar where they've understood how they each operate in a business setting, which allows them to say, okay, now I can also have pizza with you afterwards. Because you've seen me at my, I don't know, my most stressful, my most critical, under pressure in terms of business decisions, and then taking that to then build a business t together. Whereas a lot of the time when you see some businesses where it was, I don't know, they were married first and started a business, they ended up going that way. Yeah. Um as well. But yeah, those are the fundamentals, isn't it? Where you've basically seen each of the different ways businesses come together and at which part you would like to be part of a business. Have you then determined what your sweet spot is of help?
Annabelle:Yeah, I I think for me, like if I was gonna do another startup, I would do it 100% myself. Um, I would bootstrap it and I would be building, yeah, community and then and then leverage it further from there. And I think for me, in terms of like, yeah, supporting like other businesses, like that that's always kind of in a a fun, a fun thing to do kind of on advisory. But I I'm one of those people who loves a pro I like a love problem solving. So I love a puzzle. Like I'm one of those those people who sit down, I cannot leave until the puzzle's done, regardless of how big it is. So if I'm sitting here for seven hours, I'm doing that puzzle because I can't leave it unfinished. Like it's really, like, it really bugs me. So I um I I love looking at big challenges. And so that can be for a small startup or it can be for a big company, especially when like maybe I love a turnaround, I love moving things off in a different way. Um, and I like supporting companies, I think have something more to them than just I want to make money, which is like there's part of a culture that they're trying to be part of, or values that they bring through. So whether that's, you know, like a lush type company or a body shop or you know, like other types of businesses that are trying to do different, different things in in their space or like change things like Fenty and Glossy. I think those are the the disruptive beauty players is kind of the businesses that I would love to love to help, I think, kind of moving forward. But yeah, I definitely for me, I've I've definitely called it out. Like if I do another iteration of a startup, where where would I go? That would that would definitely um be it. And then I think also just really understanding, you know, the equity and the cap tables and you know, and dilution and really control that ultimately if you want to create something and you want it to be yours, you need to control it. And if you don't, it's not yours. So yeah, as well, just kind of isn't it?
TrailblazersExperience:It's the decision you're making as as a founder. I believe uh Bobby Brown had when she sold her business to Esther Lauder, yeah, she had uh I think 20 or 30 years where she had. Yeah, but she did. 20, 30 years, yeah. It's crazy, but she was okay with it, and now I think it's called Joan's Road that she started. But there are all these things where you need to be happy with the decision that you've made at the time and understand what that means. So if it's giving up ownership or just sitting back and letting the check roll in and letting others make the decision, or I want to keep ownership, it's it's all things to consider, which, like you said, they don't teach you in secondary school. We're having now to use Chat GPT podcasts, our networks to get this information which hope should help other women out there in these journeys.
Annabelle:Yeah. And I I think equally, like when you're when you're looking at those, those journeys of like, you know, into startup, it's like, really, why? Why do you why do you want to? Because it is a really hard journey, like startup like it's not, it's like I thought I really understood that being part of a kind of more entrepreneurial business. The retail was the dominant force of obviously of everything that was mainly. And purely organic. A purely organic, and that's not the play. Like, you know, historically you would look at comms and you would look at comms on maybe five things. And and now you look at comms and you're like, oh my god, how many different communication channels? Because especially now with the growth of AI, you need, you know, you're not just looking at SEO, you need to be looking at how that interspaces with with Claude, with ChatGPT, perplexity. Like you can't be sleeping on the fact that the customer is moving all the time. And so that that reality, and also into when you look at that from a global perspective, it's very, very, very different. It's completely different in another. If you don't have that, you know, locked in for your for the markets where you want to do as well. You can't have this kind of one size fits all approach. You you've really got to build in the cultural nuances, which makes business more expensive. Like that is the reality. It makes business more expensive to run and more expensive to acquire a customer today than it did even like two or three years ago. I just mean the cost of acquisition during COVID was super cheap.
TrailblazersExperience:Also, people took more risks because I think it was we have to be agile right now. We don't know what's going to happen in two months or three months. Well, yeah, no, we didn't even know what's happening next day. Yeah. And I think that was a good time for I watch Shark Tank a lot, and you see businesses that grew during the pandemic, or areas or sectors that thrived, or technologies that just accelerated, and they're still here today is because they took those those chances and now obviously the consumers pivoted. We all want experience, we all want to go and touch and feel things. How do you pivot from that to make sure that you can join the two together? It's I still feel fundamentals of being agile is is still key and make decisions. Yes, it's important. Make decisions quickly, fail fast and um and move on. Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, what's front of mind for you right now? You've amassed an impressive career, you've summed it up in terms of you love problem solving, attention to detail, understanding the story. Um, you know, I'm trying to read you right now, but front what's front of mind for you in terms of a personal goal or initiative or shift of where you want to go directionally?
Annabelle:I think I I it's an interesting question, actually, to be honest. I've I've looked at like it in a few different ways. Like I think something I feel like I hadn't really realized was when I left Lush, how much of your identity is attached to the place that you're at.
TrailblazersExperience:Yeah.
Annabelle:Um, and how dangerous that can be, actually, which you don't realise, but but it actually is. Um at least it was for me. In the essence of like, I stepped out and then I was like, who am I? Who who who's Annabelle outside of Lush? Because for so long it had been Annabelle at Lush. And you know, I was there 26 years. That that's like even wild to think about in terms of like, you know, I was there, it's a very long period of time. And so I think one of the things I'm really focused on now is building that identity more around, and I would say this for future people for you know, for younger people, but also anyone in a career thinking it's like you're more than the company that you work for. You're not just an employee, and you have to build probably more so today than any other time, build that around. But it's not just also the work, you know, like I've always been incredibly passionate, particularly around human rights and treating people correctly. I mean, natural disasters was actually one of the things that I was super passionate about, which I sounds crazy, but actually supporting people after a natural disaster has occurred. And then so I'm looking at more in my space, a headspace of thinking, okay, if I was going to pivot careers or if I was going to look at something different, or I want to look at something alongside of working within the FMCG category, like I want to start looking at those things again in terms of whether that's charitable work and organizations, either in the NED like and NED capacity, but also just really getting into that headspace of thinking about what really matters to me. Because sometimes I think we can go along with a lot of like doing what matters for someone else. You get asked to do something, you do it, you get asked to do something, you do it. And then sometimes you can kind of be like, I've just been on a hamster wheel, like, and I haven't got off, and now I've got off the hamster wheel and I don't know what direction I'm going because I'm like blindsided by the spinning. And I think that definitely, I think the younger generation, definitely my kids' generation, maybe even your children, mine are a bit younger, but I can see them they're going to be the generation of entrepreneurs. Jen Alpha are definitely the generation of entrepreneurs. They are not going to want to work for people necessarily as inherently as we have done, as like definitely for me as millennials, it's like I'm going to get a job and I'm going to be an employee. I wish someone at, you know, at 20 had really sat me down and been like, there's another pathway here. Um, and here's how you do it. Um, because I think that's the opportunity, and I'm so excited for that generation, I think, coming through. But also it's not too late, and you can continue to do those things um even now. But it's exciting to get those guys started and you know, thinking in that way. But for me, definitely, I think it's ex it's kind of continuing to explore really what do I really, you know, what do I care about? Well, I know what, you know, those those areas, but like let's get involved in them and let's kind of be part of them. And also like I love the idea of waking up in the morning and love what I'm doing. I did like, you know, and I did, and I have done for like 27 years, and I want to kind of like continue doing that. So it's finding the space and the companies that you can be a part of that you feel like you can really make a difference in. And so for me, yeah, organizations that are looking at turnaround that are in trouble potentially or disruptive would be the organizations I probably would most want to work with, alongside of working in probably more on the human rights piece. But I do, I do think identity is something that I don't know, even in my 40s, I feel like people don't really talk about, but I do feel like, especially in your 40s, maybe this is also a thing that happens, is like I feel like you have to let go of your youth. No one talks to you really about that. I don't feel like maybe my my parents, my mum never did. But I feel like the 40s is really like because once you get to 50, there's no there's no passing off thinking that you're like in that kind of younger subset. You know, that time has gone. But in your 40s, there's a part of you that still clicks on to that idea of being in into that younger generation. And then, you know, when I speak to my friends who are in their 50s, they're like, oh my god, you can't wait till you get here, trust me, because you really aren't going to give two things about a lot of it, and it's and it's great. But I think I'm also in that kind of crux of like that generate or that time period, which I think can also be a bit of a challenge for for people, particularly women, because obviously the hormonal things outside of that. But I think it's exciting also to continue to kind of reinvest and reinvent yourself. And I just love the fact that every day can be a learning day. What better day to continue learning?
TrailblazersExperience:And I feel like it's coming back full circle to the things you're passionate about. You know, you talked about geography and human geography, people, your core values and ethics about, you know, really wanting to be there for the things that are happening in the world. It's like a full circle moment that happening for you, isn't it? That interest that you had when you were you're younger that was intrinsic in you is gonna be the guiding force for for what you do next. And yeah, embracing the fourties, honestly, it's the I don't give a shit, period.
Annabelle:Is I wasn't gonna use that word because I wasn't sure if I could spell. Okay, that's good, that's good. No, I love that. And I yeah, I absolutely agree. And that that that's that's the that's the fun bit. And also just having fun. Like life is way too serious, and it is for a lot of very good reasons, but you know, for yourself, for your own like mental health, you need to have fun.
TrailblazersExperience:Nobelle, we end the podcast with uh the trailblazer takeaway tips. Usually people share three, but if there was one piece of advice, obviously hindsight is an interesting thing. We want to motivate and inspire the women out there, what would your takeaway tips be?
Annabelle:I think I probably my main one would be like just don't settle. Don't settle for less than you are. I think there's a large part, you know, you get kind of told to kind of like almost like dull your dull your spirit, dull your energy, like in some part. And I think where I've excelled, where I've been at the best version of myself, it's when I've been most connected authentically to who I am and to what I do and what I do best. And that means, yeah, not not settling and being that voice in the room sometimes, even when it's the uncomfortable voice that's kind of show shining a light on something that's kind of maybe not where it needs to be. And so yeah, don't hesitate to stand up for yourself, to do something that's different. And if you need someone to back you, message me.
TrailblazersExperience:Find me on LinkedIn, I'll do it. Love it. Annabelle, thank you so much for sharing your story. It's been nice to see the thread of how we started talking about your career and where you worked and pivoting really to it being about you, you know, your courage, your clarity, your connection. You've got some vision and some great ideas. So I'm really looking forward to see what you do next. Where can everyone find you on the internet, on the socials?
Annabelle:LinkedIn, predominantly. That's where I'm at uh for now. So come come find me on LinkedIn. Maybe I should set off a substack actually.
TrailblazersExperience:Maybe that'll be next thing. I think that would be good. And also check out Annabelle's TEDx talk as well. We'll put the link in the show notes. For everyone who's been listening, thank you so much. Until next time, stay bold, stay curious, and keep trailblazing.