The Trailblazers Experience Podcast

EP82 From Medicine to Malbec: Dr. Laura Catena's Journey

• Ntola • Season 5 • Episode 82

Share episode

 In this episode of the Trailblazers Experience Podcast, my guest Dr. Laura Catena discusses her transition from a Stanford-trained emergency physician to a renowned winemaker in the family business. She shares insights on blending science with tradition in winemaking, the importance of preserving Argentinian wine culture, and her advocacy for evidence-based insights on wine and health.

Chapters

00:00:00 Introduction to Dr. Laura Catena 00:03:00 Journey from Medicine to Winemaking 00:09:00 Blending Science with Tradition 00:15:00 Preserving Argentinian Wine Culture 00:21:00 The Wine First Concept 00:27:00 Mentorship and Legacy 00:33:00 Future Vision and Projects 00:59:00 Trailblazer Tips 

Find Dr Laura Catena 
Instagram : @lauracatenamd  catena.institute.com 
Linkedin : https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-laura-catena/
Author : https://www.amazon.com/Vino-Argentino-Insiders-Country-Argentina/dp/0811873307
Online : https://www.indefenseofwine.com/ 




Send us Comments & Feedback

Listen : to the audio version Apple Spotify .Amazon Music Google Podcasts
Watch and subscribe to my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@Thetrailblazersexperience
Follow Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/thetrailblazersexperience/

The Trailblazers Experience:

Welcome to another episode of the Trailblazers Xtreme podcast, the podcast where we have candid conversations with women sharing their career journeys. Today's guest is a multi-hyphenate scientist, vintner, author and change maker and really a trailblazer. I'm joined by a fourth generation Argentinian winemaker, Stanford trained emergency physician, author of three acclaimed books and founder of the Catena Institute of Wine. She's MD of the world-renowned if you don't know about it, Google it Catena Sabata, as well as creator of Luca Wines and Domaine Nico. I'm reading here something that was described by doing the research that Laura's leadership has been shaped the global perception of Argentinian wine and earned accolades across science, sustainability and storytelling, and she has a few Michelin star wines as well. I think Angelica is one of them, which is, you know, really renowned within the restaurant industry as well. So, Laura, welcome to the podcast, Thank you. Thank you, Antola.

Dr Laura Catena:

I feel shy right now. You make me sound so amazing.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Well, you know what we have to give you your flowers, you know, and praise you now for all the things that you've done, so it's a bit of a pat on the back for Dr Laura Katerna. So it's really important to sometimes to reflect on all the stuff that you've done, isn't it? It's stuff, things that you've built over your career and now you can read through and say, oh, my goodness, it was worth it actually.

Dr Laura Catena:

Yeah, well, you know I have done a lot of amazing things but, honestly, nothing would be possible without all these people in Argentina our team at the winery who work so hard. They're so amazing. You know, yesterday we were having a meeting with all the vineyard people and we were talking about how we're preserving these genetically diverse vines, and it was so technical and they know so much. And I was thinking, wow, these young people, they know so much, they work so hard.

Dr Laura Catena:

You know, I was kind of thinking that you read all these things about these new generations that they don't like this and they don't like that, and I was looking at these young people who were incredible. I don't know. I just had this moment just yesterday, watching people at the winery talk about their work in the vineyard, in preserving the natural world, in making wines that speak of a place, in preserving our traditions, and it was such a beautiful thing. It made me think, you know, wow, all this work has been worth it, because if these young people at our winery are so passionate about what they're doing, we're doing something right.

The Trailblazers Experience:

You know what I mean. Your winery has been around what? 123 years.

Dr Laura Catena:

Yeah, yeah, Since 1902, my great-grandfather came from Italy and I sometimes think of myself as sixth generation because there were two generations in Italy before Argentina. And yeah, 1902 were the first finds from my great-grandfather, Nicola Catena, from Le Marche in Italy. I mean that is amazing.

The Trailblazers Experience:

You know, you've talked about it, so it does take a village in a way. So when you talk about everyone who's in the winery, it's a community, it's a family, and all the dots that are joined together is what makes it what it is yeah, absolutely.

Dr Laura Catena:

And you know it's very easy to sit there and fantasize about all the things you want to do. But you know, today more than ever, I am very aware that every idea is going to require so much work, and you know you just have to make sure that you're not dreaming too much. You know which. Maybe that's depressing, but you know you can't get everything done that you dream of. So you have to pick a few things and do them really well, and that's, I think, perhaps the winning strategy that's worked for me.

The Trailblazers Experience:

So let's talk about your career, because it's beautifully complex. Progress is not linear. You started off with medicine, so let's literally go all the way back as to what prompted you to say actually I want to go into the medical profession, and then we can talk about the weave that has been winemaking, research, being an author. What have been some pivotal moments that really shaped your career?

Dr Laura Catena:

Yes, Well, when I was in university, I loved science, but I also loved humanities and I knew I wanted to do work with people. I tried actually working in a science lab and I was a bit bored because, you know, it was just all day inside the lab doing technical things and I thought I need to be with people, I need to be talking, and so I thought, ok, doctor, this is great because I can help people. I really want to do something to help others, to help the world, and I got to use my science and I got to be with people and I thought that was exactly the kind of thing I wanted to do and I actually really enjoyed being a doctor for 27 years. So I think I made the right choice. But what's interesting is that I have no concept in my head that making wine actually would have all the same characteristics. You know, because wine is coming from the earth, it's maintaining communities, it gives joy when drunk in moderation and pleasure and, you know, it even has some associations with health benefits and some harms. But there's definitely some benefits in the literature. We can talk about that later. This is a big project of mine. Right now I have a website, indefensivewinecom, explaining all the science behind wine and health. And so actually today, I think that making wine, I am using science, I'm working with people, I am spreading love, helping people, I think, to enjoy life, which in the end is one of our goals, or it should be at least enjoying the moment, which I think wine really does help us enjoy a meal, it helps us relax, have an enhanced experience with friends and family, as long as we don't drink too much, that's the key.

Dr Laura Catena:

But back then I didn't think that wine was a career that was going to accomplish these goals that I had, and I think that's quite common. You know, when you're young Also, you think of anything that's a business as bad, or at least I did. My children are, I think, maybe not less idealistic, but they're more practical. They understand that actually you need to make money to be able to do the things you want to do, to go on vacations, support your family. At that time in my life I thought anything that is focused on making money like a business. I don't want anything to do with that. I want to be a doctor and help people, but doctors need to get paid too and hospitals run on money and money has to be made. So, at that time, though, I thought that anything that was a business was maybe not something I was interested in.

The Trailblazers Experience:

You were in your ideology, isn't it, Of what the world is and what your values and your ethics and anything with money. I just want to help, but you're right. Interesting enough, it is the business of medicine, isn't it? And if you're not paid well, you can't concentrate, You're not able to do a good job, which is why you know probably a lot of hospitals and institutions that are not having that funding are struggling in third world countries, et cetera.

Dr Laura Catena:

You know, I was just in Burgundy at the Hospice de Bonne, which is, you know, this incredible hospital that was founded with auctions of wine and it's still supported by all these vineyards that have been donated by people, and they have this amazing hospital in this, you know, rather small part of France that is supported by wine, and I think that's such a beautiful thing, you know, and it was created hundreds of years ago. So, yeah, I think there are good ways to make your money and spend your money, and I've changed my mind about that now that I'm quite a bit older.

The Trailblazers Experience:

So what was the pivotal point? For you to say, right, I've done all that I can in my medical profession, I've achieved what I need to achieve in my medical profession, I've achieved what I need to achieve. For you to now say, actually, I want to step back into the family business and it's a change, isn't it? It's a career change isn't it?

Dr Laura Catena:

Instead of going linear, you're going elsewhere. What was that decision point for you? I worked for 25 years. Most of my medical career I was also working in wine. So this started a long time ago, my involvement in the winery and it was mostly related to helping my father, because he was actually very depressed when I told him I would be a doctor, because he wanted me to go work with him and he thought, oh my God, as a doctor she would never, ever come work with me because she loves being a doctor. But then I think he is one of those people that never give up. And so he said Laurita, you know, I'm going to France and I have to see what the competition, the top of French wines are doing.

Dr Laura Catena:

And I don't speak French. And you speak French because I studied French when I was quite young and I love the French language and French literature and French culture, and so of course you know my papa is asking me to go to France with him. I say yes, so I go to France and I immediately fall in love with wine, although I was already in love with French literature. I was kind of obsessed with Sacre and Camus growing up as a teenager, because you know, the big existential questions are the questions of that age, and they are still questions that I ask myself. I think those are questions that you never stop asking yourself. You know the whole existential movement in France, but anyhow. So I go with my father, I fall in love with wine, and then he will ask me you know, back then, little things like Laurita, will you go represent us at this wine fair? And I would say, papa, you know I have a hospital shift and you know I have one day off this week. And he'd say, oh, okay, that's the day, it's Saturday, perfect, you can go. I could see what he was doing there. Yeah, exactly, he was like you can fly to New York and stand behind a little table and represent our winery.

Dr Laura Catena:

And so what happened was that, you know, I got interested in wine and then I felt bad for my father, who would always say to me oh, my English is so bad, his English is quite good. But he would say, oh, you know, you have to help us, you know. And I said, okay, wine is really interesting. I have my doctor job. I was an accident emergency doctor so I could work shifts. So I said, okay, I will work part time as a doctor, because I'm not stopping being a doctor. I love this. This is my. You know my profession I was born to do, but I will start helping a little bit in the winery.

Dr Laura Catena:

So I actually started with research at the Catena Institute. So you know, studying the soil, the climate, all these things that were very science-based, and you know I had a science background. That was something I knew about. I didn't know anything about selling or the word marketing. I remember I didn't understand what the word marketing meant. It sounded kind of like a very horrible word. I still don't like using it because it sounded like pushing people to buy something. And I said to my father you know, papa, what? What does this marketing mean? Is it doing an advertisement? Is it the label? And he said Laurita, don't worry about that. He said I tell you it's very simple If you make something that is twice as good as your competitors, so you know, if your 20 pound wine is as good as the 40 pound wines, then you don't need marketing. So, number one thing and honestly, he said this to me, you know, 30 years ago, I can't improve on that.

The Trailblazers Experience:

I think that is the number one step. You know 30 years ago. I can't improve on that. I think that is the number one step. You know that is quality, if you can over deliver quality.

Dr Laura Catena:

Consumers are very smart. They taste the wine. They don't have to be wine experts. Better wines taste, taste, better it really does. People can tell.

Dr Laura Catena:

And so number one thing and then he, he just said something that that I thought was interesting, which was you know, try to do things differently, don't copy other people. And it's very tempting when you start in something you want to, you know, do something like other people. You go to Italy and you say, oh, you know, I love their Super Tuscans, let's do a wine like that. Or you go to Burgundy and they have the wines from the little Climat and you say, oh, we need to do that. And it's very tempting to try to copy what other people are doing.

Dr Laura Catena:

After I was doing this for a while, I realized, wow, we don't need to copy. Everything we have is amazing and very different. We have Malbec. Nobody else has a substantial amount of plantings of Malbec, because in France it was nearly abandoned.

Dr Laura Catena:

We have this high altitude, which is different. We have this culture, which is this mix of Italian and Spanish and Argentinian, which is a mix of the people who were there before the Europeans came and they built these canals, and we have this rich culture in Argentina that is unique and different, and in Mendoza, also a different culture than in Buenos Aires, our capital, and so I thought, wow, this is different and this is what we need to preserve and highlight and talk about. But yeah, I didn't know anything about the whole business side, but I knew about research and science and I think that was really important, because a lot of the work back then had to do with competing with these great producers from around the world and we were making a lot of wine for the domestic market. But a lot of the wines were blends. They weren't necessarily terroir driven, they were in some areas that maybe were a little too warm, so we did need some science to elevate the quality of our wines.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Yeah, so let's talk about that. I mean, first of all, your dad was a very wise man in terms of talking about, you know, never compromise on quality and authenticity. Those are the things that will market your brand and stand the test of time. You talked about the Catena Institute of Wine, which you launched, you know, back in the early nineties. So what was the motivation for using data and science to elevate? You know back in the early 90s. So what was the motivation for using data and science to elevate? You know, the wine, and how has that mission evolved? Is it still the same or are you moving in a different direction?

Dr Laura Catena:

Yeah. So I would say still, our mission is to make Argentine wines that can stand with the best of the world, and that was my father's mission, that's still my mission. I think that will always be our mission, you know, to really elevate our region. So why science? When I first came to wine, the one thing I did not like was that I felt like people would just do a lot of blah, blah, blah. You know they would say my wine tastes like this because I have this little rock over here and look at this, you know, fossil in the soil, and I have this plant here and that's why I have these floral aromas. And I thought is that true? And then I started doing research and I realized that a lot of this was made up stuff and people were just saying anything to sell a bottle of wine. And I also saw a lot of these flying winemakers that were making the rounds in the nineties. You know there were these, you know French, Australian, American that were just coming to new regions and saying, oh, this is how you need to prune and you know, this is how you need to plant your vineyard. You know different methods of, you know planting and you know you have the the, you have the vertical trellis, you have the barral, and so they. They would say, oh, you've always done it this way. Well, now you need to do it in this different way, because this is how we do it in France, let's say.

Dr Laura Catena:

But what I realized was that the soil and climate was so different, the varieties are different, the culture. We don't have a big phylloxera problem. Phylloxera is this pest that, basically, will decimate your vineyard anywhere in the world except for Argentina and Chile. We don't really know very well why. It's something to do with the climate, so we don't have to graft on American rootstocks. We had so many conditions that were different and then we had these, you know, flying by makers telling us to do things in certain ways, and what I realized was that in viticulture, because our product has to represent the place it comes from, it's very different from other things. You know, most people don't know where the tomatoes they're eating came from. They generally just come from somewhere where it was warm.

Dr Laura Catena:

With wine, people really care. They want to know what does the wine from this place taste like? And it's not even this place, as in a country, it's this particular vineyard parcel, and so I thought that we should do our own research so that we are making the best wines that we can do in our region, and there's a lot of things that have been done by your ancestors a certain way, for a reason. So why would somebody coming from some foreign country know something that we don't? And so a lot of the research idea came from.

Dr Laura Catena:

You know what if we could use science to preserve our nature and our culture and that is actually the method of the Catena Institute to use science to preserve nature and culture. And the reason why culture is really important as well is that you know, the natural world has already been modified by us. You know, a vineyard is, you know, Vitis vinifera, coming from the Mediterranean, planted in Argentina. You know it's not a native species. So now that we've modified our nature and that all this ecosystem has developed around these vineyards that we've planted, you know, from the little foxes to the birds, to the insects, to the fungi that live in the soil, how do we preserve that? And how do we preserve the culture of wine? Because without people farming and living in Mendoza and being part of viticulture, we have no wine, and so maintaining that culture and some of these traditions that have made our wine what it is, is also really important.

The Trailblazers Experience:

You know, you've just really summarized a lot of you know, what we're seeing in mainstream is especially viticulture and even just mainstream agriculture, where people are realizing it's all about the community, it's all about sticking to those traditional methods. That is actually what makes good product. If you're dealing with organic vegetables, fruits, etc. I think, the principles of where, if we're going to make a wine and we want it to be true to ourselves, we need to make sure we're balancing heritage, but with that innovation. So you're using the innovation to make sure that you are leveraging everything that makes Argentina what it is, and that's a good way of actually paying it forward and paying homage to the country itself and the culture. So you're taking it back, isn't it? Do you think some of these principles come from? You know your core values and your ethics in growing up. Is that something that's been ingrained in you? Do you?

Dr Laura Catena:

think and I just want to make one comment about the elevation that one of the things that we figured out with our research was that elevation wasn't just interesting because of the cooler climate and you know, for to make an age-worthy wine you need good acidity, it can't be too hot but also the effect of the sunlight was thickening the skins and giving us more tannin. So there's a lot of research that came out of this altitude, research that was qualitative research and made our wines better. So to answer your question about why culture seemed so important, you know I think that in our family always the ancestors were revered. You know people always talked about Nicola. My father would always tell stories about his Italian grandfather, and my grandfather still made prosciutto and he would grow his own tomatoes and he had this huge orchard that he would basically farm himself, no help, till very old age. And when you went to his house he would feed you the produce that he had been growing and you know he was running a substantial winery but he still took the time to have his own produce and he would make his own prosciutto. And we also make our own olive oil that we only sell in Argentina because you know we don't make that much, so there would be no sense in exporting it.

Dr Laura Catena:

But, you know, keeping these traditions alive from your culture. You know our culture is this mix of Italian and Spanish and there's some native traditions in Argentina that go into the food, like a lot of the cornmeal, and the soil and climate is not European. You know, even if we have these immigrants, the soil and climate is American, and my husband is from the US and I always say you know, I am American in Argentina. You can't own that word, so I call it American to include all the Americas, and I think that the fact that my father, my mother, also actually is an incredible cook. I am actually a terrible cook and, tola, I'm sorry to tell you this, we do have a Michelin starred restaurant, but it has nothing to do with me, the cooking. I do participate a lot in the wine, with the wine first concept that we're going to talk about later but I am a terrible cook. My mother is a great cook and she was always telling us okay, I learned this recipe from you know, your grandmother from, even from our father's side, or from her Italian grandmother. We're both all half Italian, half Spanish in my family, so I think that the fact that our family kept those traditions alive was part of why I thought that was so important. But I think also the fact that our family kept those traditions alive was part of why I thought that was so important.

Dr Laura Catena:

But I think also some of that did come from medicine, in the sense that medicine is a very collaborative field. Especially emergency medicine, you know, cannot do anything without the team. You know there's the person doing the EKG, there's the nurses, there's, you know, the medical students, there's the person who takes the information on the patient when they walk in. If that person doesn't figure out that somebody's sick, something bad could happen. So this idea that everything you do is about this community and you know, hospitals have really strong communities that support each other and so I think that that sense of community that I had learned as a doctor also helped when it came to going to the winery and saying you know, there's this whole community behind this and how do we support this community? That involves not just the people at the winery, but everybody in Mendoza is supporting wine in a certain way. You know, for example, this is an incredible thing is that you know we had mining that was potentially coming to our region and you know they didn't need to come to the areas where we were making wine or farming vineyards. They could have gone to other places and they were literally about to put all these mines that if something went wrong they could contaminate our water and the people went out in the streets and they didn't get the rights for mining and things like that.

Dr Laura Catena:

If the culture is not defended by the people who live there, then who is going to defend it?

Dr Laura Catena:

And I think I grew up with this culture where everybody cares about wine and what wine means to our region. We are the wine region of Argentina. Mendoza is making 80% of the wine, so even if somebody doesn't work in wine, they care about wine and our traditions and I grew up in that and I am trying to do that with my children also to teach them how important the farming culture and all that. And I think it is hard for people who live in cities to have that connection to the land. And that is one of the things that I love about wine is that when you drink a bottle of wine, you know today you can chat GPT who the producer is, and you know I love and hate chat GPT. But when I'm drinking a wine and I just plug in the name and it tells me all about that family, I love it and we can stay connected to all these places, to all these cultures through a bottle of wine, and that's what makes the industry so interesting.

The Trailblazers Experience:

One of the reasons I've also fallen in love with it is that it's really about, of course, yes, winemaking techniques, sustainability, ecosystem, etc. And great product, but it's really about the community, the people making the wine, the marketing, the people importing it, you know, the ones who have to sell it, and then when you have sommeliers who then do the food pairings and things like that, so there's a whole industry behind it that has people. That is so important, which is, you know, missing. As you know, when you live in a city, it's all about urbanization and it's sort of lost in a way. Now, going back, that's been a really interesting, fun fact that you've shared, that you don't. You're not a great cook, and yet you have this Michelin star restaurant which I need to visit if I ever, not if when I come to Argentina.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Angelica, cucina Maestra, which has got Michelin stars and just like I've seen some footage about the food pairings and that whole concept of wine first. Was that restaurant your concept? Was it your idea then to say we actually need a restaurant in the family, or how? And that whole concept of wine first? Was that restaurant your concept? Was it your idea then to say we actually need a restaurant in the family, or how did that come about?

Dr Laura Catena:

Okay. So actually I vetoed the restaurant concept for 20 years. Everybody in my team would say, laura, this winery just put a restaurant, that winery just put a restaurant, why don't we have a restaurant? And I would say, you know what? It would be very arrogant for me to say that we're trying to make the best wines of South America. You know, and that is our goal. We want to be up there with the best of the world.

Dr Laura Catena:

And you know I'm a big believer in competition, not mean competition, you know. But you know saying I want to improve. And look at my neighbor, they did this. Wow, we now need to make it even better wine. You know, I think that's healthy and we always talk like this with the other producers in Argentina. You know, when we sit there and bring a bottle of wine, we do this all the time where everybody brings a bottle and we taste it and you're thinking like, oh my God, his wine is so good, oh my God, her rosé is amazing. And that triggers you to work harder and say, wow, you know, my competition is tough. There's so much good wine and I'm a big believer that everybody in Argentina should be trying to make a better wine and that, you know, rises, makes our region rise. But now back to the cooking and the Angelica Cocina Maestra. So I said, listen, everything needs to go into wine, because it's already so hard to compete out there. There's so much good wine from all over the world.

Dr Laura Catena:

And if we get distracted with a restaurant, which is another really hard thing, I mean I said how arrogant would that be for us to say that because we make great wine, that we now can make great food. It's a completely different field. So I said you know what? We don't have time for that. We barely have enough time to do all the wine projects we have. So how could we possibly do a restaurant?

Dr Laura Catena:

And so our winemaker, alejandro Gil, who's been called the Messi of wine in Argentina, he started a restaurant at his house with his wife. His wife is actually a scientist. She is a biologist who specializes in tomatoes and onions in the genetic diversity, so she's another hardcore scientist. She is a biologist who specializes in tomatoes and onions in the genetic diversity, so she's another hardcore scientist. He's a soil specialist and winemaker and he actually started in research before he became a winemaker. So they're this power science couple, and so they start this restaurant and their restaurant becomes the number one in Mendoza. Everybody wants to go there. It's the top restaurant.

Dr Laura Catena:

And so then he comes to me and he says, laura, okay, so are you still thinking that you can't have this restaurant? I said, well, I guess you've just proven me completely wrong that somebody like you exists, because you are this amazing winemaker and you've managed to have the top restaurant at your house. And so I said, okay, I give up, because my father also was pushing for the restaurant. And so then during the pandemic, my father built that whole entrance area, which that was. I did want to have this front area because we have the pyramids, you know, sort of inland, and I wanted to have a place for people to come and have a wine tasting experience at the entrance of the winery area, because at the winery we're also working, so we can't have that many visitors.

Dr Laura Catena:

And so the pandemic happened and basically my father went crazy and he built this restaurant place and a distillery, because the original winery in the site is an underground winery. You know, most wineries in the past were underground because that was the way to control temperature, because they didn't have electricity. He built the coolest thing. My father should be an architect. You know how I'm a doctor and a wine person. My father actually should be an architect. He's an economist as well. He has a PhD in economics but he loves building and I like planting vineyards. I don't like building buildings, I only like nature. But he likes building buildings and so he built this building inspired by an Italian photo I'd sent him years before. I sent him this little tower and he loved it so much and it's built with these recycled bricks. So, anyhow, the restaurant Angelica Cucina Maestra was built and then our winemaker is running it with his wife and they hire the whole team and he knows a lot about this because his restaurant also has a Michelin star Actually team, and he knows a lot about this because his restaurant also has a Michelin star Actually. They got the star before Angelica and so so. So, anyhow, that that is why we have this great restaurants, because our winemaker and his wife run it and they are real experts in running restaurants.

Dr Laura Catena:

But the concept is wine first, and do you want me to tell you about the wine first concept? Yes, please, yeah, so that was part of the negotiation. I said, okay, we will have a restaurant, but it will be a wine first restaurant and what wine first means is that you start with the wine list and then the wine is the main course and the food is the pairing. And this seems like a simple difference, but it's a monumental difference because basically what we do is we create all these lists of wines the same way you would create a menu in a restaurant. So we have the roller coaster wine menu, which is my favorite, which is, you know, you start with a red wine and then you go to two white wines and then you go back to a red wine, then you go to a sparkling, and you would be surprised, ntola, about how much fun it is to break the rules of wine order. It's so much more interesting.

Dr Laura Catena:

And then we have one food menu which is seasonal, and the food menu is one and only. So there's one menu. So the wine is your selection, so you can walk in and you can say you know what I want to do. An all white menu is your selection, so you can walk in and you can say you know what I want to do, an all white menu. We have a no alcohol wine menu. So we have some products that we make, some mixes of mustard juice, we have de-alcoholized products, so we have a no alcohol. If somebody doesn't want to drink, they can have the no alcohol pairing.

Dr Laura Catena:

And then we have, you know, old, vintage tasting, which is incredible, going, you know, back into the 90s, and all these different wine menus and then one food menu, and the food obviously is extraordinary because I'm not making it. It's this couple, juan and Josefina, who make the food, and we have our orchard so that all the vegetables that go into the food are locally sourced. Right there we have this really large I mean I think it's a whole hectare of produce that we grow right there, all obviously organic. And then you know things like fish come from the local streams. So you know everything is local and the food is amazing. But it's a wine first.

The Trailblazers Experience:

I love that, isn't it? It's really a bold way of reimagining hospitality. You know, that's sort of like inspiring, experiential way of looking at pairing food but also wine, in terms of breaking the norm of you have to drink wines in this order and so on, and you have to do things differently, isn't it? Why if you keep on doing the same old thing, then you get the same result.

Dr Laura Catena:

So it's sort of wine leads and the food is what follows, with the concept and what I'm trying to get people to do and we're actually doing this whole campaign around this is to go into their cellar and you know, most people who really love wine will have a little stash of wine somewhere. So you might have a fancy cellar or you might have just a little location in your house when you keep your bottles. My kids don't have a wine cellar but they have their little rack that I bought them, where they keep some wines, and so when friends come over, you know, depending on the occasion, they'll open one bottle or another, and so I encourage people to say you know what? I don't have any time to cook today, but I'm going to open a special bottle of wine, or maybe two, and it doesn't mean you need to drink the two bottles. You can use different ways of storing wine. You know I always tell people buy one of those little corks that you take out the oxygen. There's many different methods, so you can maybe open three or four bottles, but you're just going to have a little bit of each. So this is not just for fancy restaurants. You could do it at home. You can open four bottles, or you can have friends bring each a special bottle that they think of. And then you know what you can do today with all these apps, that you can order stuff. You can have the wines there and say, okay, what food do we want for this? And then maybe you order two or three different plates and then it's wine for us, because your friends brought the wine, and then you find some food to pair with the wine and imagine the most amazing time you could have and you would have spent very little time cooking.

Dr Laura Catena:

If you're like me, you know I'm so busy. I love to cook on weekends because you know I want to go to get, you know, local farmer's market food and that kind of thing. But during the week I do get a lot of takeout. But how much more fun would it be if you did something like this and then you know you don't have to spend the time cooking if you don't have it. On the other hand, I'm a big proponent of cooking at home. But you know I think, like many things, you preach something and you don't necessarily do it. So my kids always call me on it. They say, oh, you're always telling us not to eat this and that and you're always getting takeout. And I say you're right. But at least I have the fantasy that someday I will cook more.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Yeah, and the whole thing of bringing people together. You know a lot of people live in major cities. It's coming having takeout and wine. If you can do it with friends or close people, if you are a drinker, then it's. You know, it's a good way of saying, oh, let's actually try different wines that we bought. With the food as well. And, you know, promoting people not being behind screens but actually trying to spend time together. And Laura, if it's takeout and wine that brings them together, then that's another good way of looking at it.

Dr Laura Catena:

And there's also takeout and takeout. There's some takeouts that are healthier than others and there's also takeout and takeout. There's some takeouts that are healthier than others. And you know, the current trend in medicine is not to tell people don't do this, don't do that. It's more saying to people do more of this good thing. We all get takeout.

Dr Laura Catena:

Food that's not going away If you live in the city.

Dr Laura Catena:

When I'm in Mendoza, a lot of the food does come from local farms, but that's not an option for everybody in the city. You're going to have to do a few days a week takeout, but then maybe you have a salad that you make, you have the main course, you get the takeout and then you have dessert fruit that you got from a local market. So the current thinking in nutrition is you know, what are the things that are really healthy that you can do more of and do less of the less healthy things. But it's not telling people never, ever, you know, have bacon. I mean, you can have bacon once a month.

Dr Laura Catena:

More than that is probably not a good idea. But what can you substitute that moment with something else? So, more fresh fruits and vegetables. But it's not about telling people you know, don't do this, don't do that, because then people stop listening. So this wine first, I think really opens the door to have a gathering with friends, to have it be really special and to be able to do it while you still have to do all your emails at night, you know, so you might not have that much time to cook.

The Trailblazers Experience:

So yeah, and also you have an audience for any new wines that you bring out. You can actually see the reaction from the consumer isn't it and get that feedback, that insight which sometimes you're waiting for it to be transported across the world or to get to the masses before you have that too, yeah absolutely.

Dr Laura Catena:

Yeah, oh yeah, we do. We do a lot of experimentation. So, for example, our low alcohol menu we first tested it at the restaurant and people love it. You know, you always get somebody that's either driving or they're pregnant or they can't drink wine and they're all sad. They're sitting drinking sparkling water and now they can have their own course. And actually a lot of people bring their children to our restaurant. We have a little juice for them. We don't give them, I mean, even no alcohol wine, I guess I don't know. Actually, the no alcohol product we have with botanicals would be completely safe for a child because it's basically grape juice and verjuice, which is grape juice with some botanicals. So they could have that. But generally we don't give them that. We don't want them to think that it's okay to drink wine. But yeah, we do do a lot of experimenting at the winery with, you know, different concepts and wines, because we have the opportunity to explain to people what they're drinking.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Let's talk about in defense of wine. So you know you've talked about. I love how the doctor in you always comes out when you're talking about what's good, what's not. My sister's a doctor and she's always in moderation and I can feel those traits coming through, but your platform in defense of wine is obviously sharing evidence-based insights into wine and health. So what misconceptions are you hoping to challenge? And, I guess, how does your medical background inform you with these views?

Dr Laura Catena:

Absolutely so. You know, I kind of feel like I went to med school to be alive at this moment in the world, because we've been making wine for 6,000 years as humans and we've been enjoying it and it's been a big part of culture, of conviviality, of enjoying food more. It used to be something that people drank to not be poisoned by water. You know they would put a little. You know alcohol as a way to purify water. You know now it's mostly a pleasure thing and something that helps us relax in moderation. And to see this anti-alcohol movement basically taking misinformation and spreading it on the internet, which is possible today. It wasn't so easy before the internet to have a concept that was a lie and spread it. You know, today anybody can come up with something that's not true and spread it, and so this is what's happening. So there is information about alcohol and health based on these observational trials that are not as good as what's randomized, controlled. Randomized controlled is. For example, you're trying to test paracetamol for headache and you say, okay, here you are, my thousand people that get headaches, we're going to randomize. Some of you are going to take something that's a placebo, so it's not the paracetamol, and some are going to take paracetamol and we're not going to tell you which is which and you're going to say if your headache got better. And that's a randomized control Observation is.

Dr Laura Catena:

They basically look at thousands and thousands of people that fill out questionnaires and they say you know, do you smoke, do you not smoke, are you diabetic or not? What's your weight, what's your socioeconomic status? Do you eat fruits and vegetables? Do you drink alcohol? How much do you drink? And then they look at all that data and they say, okay, there's this association between this behavior and this disease and it's not as good as the randomized controlled trial to get hard information. But back to your question about what am I trying to do in defense of wine. I'm trying to put there the correct information about alcohol and health because there is so much misinformation and this misinformation is spreading because there's this new tool, you know, social media, the internet for spreading misinformation and a lot of the mainstream media, for some reason, is printing misinformation.

Dr Laura Catena:

So, for example, something that's happening a lot is they quote some researcher or sometimes even physicians who are published in what I call low-impact factor journals. So high-impact factor is something like the Lancet. You've heard of the Lancet. The Lancet is a very high-impact factor. The two leading medical journals in the world are Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine. Lancet is the European one, new England Journal of Medicine is the US one. If something's published there, you say, wow, this is a really good journal.

Dr Laura Catena:

And so some of these mainstream journalists are quoting somebody and highlighting an article in a very low impact factor. So Lancet has 96 as a number. Low impact factor would be two. Two is a lot less than 96. So somebody publishes in one of these low impact factor journals. That means that it's not really great research, because if the research was that great, they would have gotten it published in a better journal. So impact factor is a way to know is this research really great or is it maybe just a theory? It's not well proven, okay, but it is published. So they will publish and they will basically give all this credibility to something that is not published in the best journal and they will put it as fact.

Dr Laura Catena:

Yet meanwhile there is a publication in one of the top journals contradicting what that says, and they don't publish that because they're not researchers. A real researcher would look at all the data and would say, okay, I'm going to give more importance, more credence to the better study, the one that had more people, that was conducted in a better way. So what is happening is that a lot of this bad research is getting a lot of attention because people are ideological. Research is getting a lot of attention because people are ideological and if they're anti-alcohol and they get a pitch by an anti-alcohol researcher, they'd say you know, this is what I like to write about. And the other thing is that actually there's a lot of consumers that have become very passionate against alcohol and so they also love reading those articles. So you know, if you're a publication, you want to get a lot of likes and a lot of reads. And when you say something, you know, if you're a publication, you want to get a lot of likes and a lot of journals.

Dr Laura Catena:

And I also put my responses to some of these articles that are alarmist and incorrect. I put my responses there. But I am also not somebody saying anybody should drink anytime, as much as you want Obviously not. You know, excess drinking is very harmful. A lot of people die from alcohol. If you can't drink in moderation, you should consider not drinking.

Dr Laura Catena:

On the other hand, I also think it's an individual choice, as long as you're not drunk driving. If you want to drink too much, that's your issue. You're aware that it's not good for you, that's your choice. So I want to put the real science about this and then let people make their decisions. And that's my goal, and that's why I also give lectures about this. And that's my goal and that's why I also give lectures about this. And you know, as a doctor in the emergency department, I learned to communicate very complex science in simple terms, and that's a skill set that's very helpful right now because, you know people don't want to hear all the details, they just want to know hey, is it okay to have a glass of wine with dinner every night? And I can give them that information.

The Trailblazers Experience:

You know it's so interesting because what's actually happening is, you know, fact checking and research is just becoming far more obsolete. It's evolving, isn't it? A information overload, ai generated content where you can't distinguish between fact or fiction, and you know we need academic rigor, we need verification of that. But there are lots of shortcuts and I think also that credibility gap is widening as either not enough researchers and they're relying more on secondary sources too. So the fact that you're saying right how I'm going to fight this is not by complaining, but actually putting correct information online so that when people are searching they can see what's not fact, but also see the things that have been, you know, verified, that have that research integrity and stopping the spread of misinformation.

Dr Laura Catena:

Yeah, and one thing I also want to say is that I always clarify that I have a conflict of interest. I am a wine producer. So, yeah, you know, when they read my stuff, they need to know that I think that people should continue to drink wine if they enjoy it and they're able to control how much they drink, because I think it's a beautiful thing in life. But, yes, I am biased and I don't hide that, you know. That's why I send them to articles that are published by people who have nothing to do with the alcohol industry as well, and that's an important thing. You know, I actually did this interview in Ireland.

Dr Laura Catena:

You know, in Ireland they were going to put these back labels that to me, were incorrect because they were saying that, you know, alcohol, all alcohol, causes cancer and liver disease, and that's not true. Alcohol moderation, you know, should not cause liver disease if your liver is okay. You know the cancer risk. There may be some association with breast cancer with drinking even small amounts. But again, I tell people go talk to your doctor. Every person has a bunch of risk factors, genetics, so your doctor needs to talk you through what's the best thing for you, you know, if you wanted to have no risk for anything. Everybody would be super thin, you know, no one would ever have butter or you know. Go out in the street. Actually walking is risky, is more risky than drinking. This was this article that the Economist published. That was so funny because actually they looked at the data of people walking and actually walking is more risky than drinking to your health, than drinking in moderation.

The Trailblazers Experience:

That is amazing yeah.

Dr Laura Catena:

They showed all the data, so so, anyhow. So so the point being that I just wanted all that information to be in one place and I have most of the references. All the references come from reputable publications. But I do have a big concern, which is that some of this anti-alcohol talk is is now going to attack scientists, and you were saying that about how, you know, it's hard to be a scientist, it's hard to get funding, and for a scientist that's trying to figure something out to be attacked because they said that there's some benefit.

Dr Laura Catena:

I mean, there's this huge US study from the National Academies, which is the most reputable group of doctors. They basically get a group of doctors that are top in their field to answer a difficult question. This is something done by the US government. The US government commissioned this study from the National Academies leading doctors. They showed that people who drink in moderation have about between 60% and 24% lower all-cause mortality, and they controlled for socioeconomic status, for weight, for all kinds of things. So that's kind of a powerful finding, right?

Dr Laura Catena:

And you know, people tried to smear that, oh, this maybe had something to do with the alcohol industry. It has nothing to do with the alcohol industry, did not fund it. But people start saying it and then you know the readers say, oh well, maybe it's true, right? So this is the problem we have you can't even do credible research and publish in a good journal without somebody who has a different motive, who just disagrees with you, trying to question it. And so, yeah, in defense of wine, is everything that I think is credible in one website for people to understand what the risks and benefits might be to moderate drinking?

The Trailblazers Experience:

I mean, if anyone wants to see the truth of the study that was done, you should just go and see how people in Mediterranean climates live, whether it's in France or Italy, you know, you have your nonna, who's in her knees and so on, and she's been walking, drinking and all of that, and you think it's the quality of life, isn't it that everything in moderation, it comes back down to that, I suppose.

Dr Laura Catena:

Actually I have slight objections to everything in moderation. I'll tell you in a minute. First about Mediterranean diet. So every time they've studied different diets, the Mediterranean diet comes on top and the Mediterranean diet includes alcohol in moderation. Now there is a study going on right now in Spain 10,000 people randomized control so the gold standard study, where they're randomizing people to keep on drinking wine or to stop drinking wine and they're going to check their hair to make sure that they're following the instructions. And after the study is finished, in about five years, we're really going to know is there a heart protective effect from alcohol, which mostly from wine, they will be able to say, because they're only testing wine within the Mediterranean diet. So you know, the research for decades has shown this heart protective effect because alcohol is a blood thinner, it's like a little aspirin and many people don't know they have heart disease. So if they're drinking in moderation it's like taking an aspirin, so their heart is protected and there's also improvement in sugar levels. So lower sugar, so better sugar control with moderate drinking, and there's a whole mechanism for that. But anyhow, this study is going to definitively tell us is there a heart protective effect from wine in the Mediterranean diet, or could we get rid of the wine and the Mediterranean diet would still be good. So we're going to get an answer to that.

Dr Laura Catena:

But back to the everything in moderation. So that is actually not correct in my point of view, because there's some things that actually are really bad, even in moderation. So, for example, smoking. So a lot of people smoke, socially, right. So they have a cigarette with their friends, you know, and four cigarettes per day this has been studied increase your mortality by 50%. That's really bad. So actually, smoking a little is really bad, whereas drinking a little reduces your mortality. You live longer. So what I'm saying is there's some things where you could say everything in moderation and there's other things where a small amount has a high risk. So I actually think that everything in moderation does not necessarily apply, because what is moderation? So, for example, we do know what are some amounts of highly processed food that are harmful. They think that actually any amount. But you know, can anybody prove that? You know, you have one hamburger per month from some fast food. Is that harmful? Probably not, right? So I do think there's a point about everything in moderation, but I think there's something.

The Trailblazers Experience:

It's dangerous, isn't it? In terms of if you use it for the wrong things, then it becomes yeah like smoking and so on.

Dr Laura Catena:

I think there's something that you should just try to never do. But again, if somebody wants to have their cigarette with their friends, as long as they're aware of what the risk is, that's their call. Like you know, as long as they're not harming somebody else or smoking inside their house, you know that's their yeah, it's a lot to be said about that, isn't it?

The Trailblazers Experience:

Is making sure that people are aware of the consequences of their actions and it's their awareness, isn't it Peace, which is? I mean, there's, like you said, there's misinformation and there's hardcore information out there that is telling you that let's pivot to talk about. You know, you being an author and a storyteller. What inspired you to become an author?

Dr Laura Catena:

Well, mostly I wanted somebody to talk about all these different things and I was looking for somebody else to write a book about all these things that I thought somebody should write about. And it's not that easy to get somebody else to write about your idea unless you're willing to pay them a ton of money. And the first book was Vino Argentino, an Insider's Guide to the Wines and Wine Country of Argentina. There was not an English language book about Argentine wine and I talked to so many journalists and they were like, oh, we're too busy, we can't write this book. And so I said, ok, I'm going to write this book and I actually, after five years, found a publisher and they actually paid me to write the book and it was a very successful book and I think it really changed what people knew about Argentine wine and the reviews are wonderful because a lot of people would buy it before going to Argentina on a wine trip and it has recipes which are amazing and anyhow it's. That was a great book. And then the second book was Gold in the Vineyards.

Dr Laura Catena:

I wanted somebody to write a book about the great vineyards in the world, how they weren't all in Burgundy, that there were great vineyards in Argentina, italy, in Australia and in the US, and I wanted it to be illustrated because I think people don't want to be reading dense tomes about wine, and I love illustrated books. I love illustrations. I love children's books. I wish all my books now were children's books, and so we did an illustrated book. And then the last book was with our winemaker, alejandro Gil, and it's Malbec, mon Amour, and it's our road trip through Malbec, the history of Malbec, argentina, and it actually became a bestseller in Argentina and it was the first time that a wine book was a bestseller.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Yeah, what story were you most passionate about telling? Which was your favorite book to?

Dr Laura Catena:

write. So you know, my sister is a historian, adriana Catera. She has a PhD from Oxford, so I'm very proud of her and she says my best book is Gold in the Vineyards, because that's the book where I tell the stories of the most famous vineyards in the world, and our vineyard is one of the vineyards. But you know I have four French vineyards, so I was fair, I didn't, you know, take everything from Argentina. But it's really fun because I looked at all the kind of you know, crazy dramatic stories that happen in all these places and I put these stories in the book. So it's actually a really fun book to read and has these great illustrations.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Let's talk about mentorship and leadership, because we know that a lot of women are looking for inspiration in their careers. Who are your key mentors and how are you now helping women, whether it's in science, winemaking or business, even just being an author, yeah, so everybody needs mentors.

Dr Laura Catena:

Mentors are so important, and I read a book a long time ago that said that you need older mentors and younger mentors. And that seems so simple, but that wasn't obvious to me. I was always thinking you need older mentors and then I realized, wow, the young people know so much stuff that I don't know, and it's not just because science and culture move so fast, it's just that they have a different way of looking at the world because they're younger, and older people have also a different way of looking at the world. So I figured out I'm going to have mentors of all ages. The other thing that I figured out was that if we want more women to rise professionally, we actually need men to have older or more senior female mentors. Because what I started seeing in my team was that you know men that were being mentored by women. You know men that had women as their boss were much better mentors to new women workers because they were, they were comfortable with female authority, and so, instead of just saying I'm going to mostly mentor women, I decided you know what? I need to mentor a lot of men, because you know we just need people mentoring and women need both male and female mentors. Men need male, female mentors. You know people need mentors of all kinds. You know you need mentors in art. You need mentors in science. You need mentors in business. You know you need mentors in how to live a good life.

Dr Laura Catena:

You know, and I realized that the most important thing about mentoring was to be part of a diverse mentoring group, and I think of myself as a mentor and a mentee, and I have different relationships with different people, and in some relationships I'm mentoring something about something and they're mentoring me about something else. You know. So it's, you know, collaborative mentoring. There isn't one person that's above the other one, and so what I would say to people is find your mentors and there has to be a good fit. It's almost like a psychologist.

Dr Laura Catena:

You know they say that a psychologist cannot help you unless there's a personal good fit, and maybe this is obvious, but I think sometimes people get really obsessed about finding mentors because somebody tells them hey, you need to find your mentors, and you know the mentor relationship has to be fun also, and if you're asking somebody to mentor you, you kind of have to give them back something as well. So that is one thing that I have noticed sometimes is that organizations set up mentorship programs and it's all about the mentor giving to the mentee and people are really busy. So if somebody can help me in something well, I'm much more likely to help them. You know, I know, maybe this sounds a little utilitarian, but you know we're all really busy.

Dr Laura Catena:

So I really like it when somebody wants to be mentored. But when they say, well, you know, I know about this one thing, I can help you with that. That's a mentorship relationship that I love. When I am the mentor and the mentee, that's my favorite kind of relationship. So I would encourage people to get into those kinds of relationships, as opposed to just saying, okay, this person is going to teach me.

Dr Laura Catena:

Actually, my daughter, who is in university, she has a great mentor who is one of her professors and he said to her he said, well, what I expect in exchange is that when you are more advanced in your career, that you will do the same that I'm doing for you. That's when you could give me back. And this is somebody that cares so much about mentoring that they are looking for that. They want the mentee to commit to becoming a mentor to others and that makes them whole. That means something because that person is trying to have a huge impact. That is their life goal to affect a lot of people, to help a lot of people. And I thought that was really wonderful because you know my daughter took it very seriously.

Dr Laura Catena:

She said oh, you know, I need to know when am I going to look for mentees? I said, no, you're okay, you're still mostly looking for mentors. You're okay, you're still mostly looking for mentors she's 20.

The Trailblazers Experience:

She's got 15, 20 years to go. Yeah, to pay it forward.

Dr Laura Catena:

Yeah.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Laura, looking ahead, what's next for you? I mean ahead five 10 years what is?

Dr Laura Catena:

your vision. What are you working on? Well, you know we're always working at things in the winery. You know we're now planting vineyards outside of Mendoza because the water is limited because of the Andean glaciers and the climate change, so we are trying to elevate other regions outside of Mendoza, in Patagonia, in Salta, in La Rioja we have a place called La Rioja in Argentina so we're trying to find grand cru or like first growth level vineyards in some of these areas that are less known.

Dr Laura Catena:

And you know Argentina is a huge country with very few people. So there are these incredible locations at high altitude that I think could make incredible wine. So that's one really interesting project. We're working on these no low alcohol wines, but we want these wines to taste as good as alcohol wines I think that's virtually impossible but closer than what they are now, what the market looks like. We also are working on some white wine projects.

Dr Laura Catena:

You know there is an increase in white wine interest and we are very well known for our high-altitude Chardonnay, but we have a lot of Chenin Blanc planted in Argentina. We have a wine that's relatively new last couple of years Sevillon Chenin blend that is selling really well and really working on preserving what we already have which is so special, and with climate change, there are a lot of challenges. You know, one really important thing is keeping people working in vineyards. It's really hard to stop the exodus to the city, and it's not just financial, it's just, you know, people are moving to the cities. This is a worldwide phenomenon. So how can we make the lives of people working in the vineyards so amazing that they want to stay, and so I'd say that that's one of the bigger projects.

Dr Laura Catena:

But, yeah, there's so much stuff going on, and actually this fighting misinformation about alcohol and health, I would say, is one of my most important projects, because it's kind of existential. This is a cultural product and it's been around for 6,000 years, and I think it's very cavalier for people to just say bye-bye to this beautiful cultural product that is most likely health-enhancing rather than health, than health negative in moderation. So I think that that's kind of a big part of what I'm looking to do in the next couple of decades is make sure that the true science is being shared with people who love wine.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Look, I think your legacy is already on track. Ai is not going to take away. You know vineyards and farming and community, so I think there's a lot there, laura. Before we close, we always ask our guests to share their trailblazer takeaway tips. You know one or two pieces of advice for the listeners to take away with them. What would they be?

Dr Laura Catena:

Well, the first one is a phrase that somebody an ex-ice hockey player that became a doctor he said hard on issues, soft on people. That is the best phrase, because sometimes people feel, oh God, was I too hard on that person? Well, you should never be hard on a person, but you should be hard on issues. You should really fight for the issues that matter, and so I think that's just sort of a communication guideline that is so helpful for people who are very passionate like me and who tend to sometimes speak too loud or too strongly. I always remember that Never be hard on people and if you are just apologize right away, you must apologize. You know it's never good to leave somebody sad or feeling bad about themselves, so that's really important. And another one that might actually surprise you, because I was talking about how, when I started, I was all about you know I don't care about money and you know I want to help people is actually to be very aware of how much things cost.

Dr Laura Catena:

And when I started working with my father he has a PhD in economics and he basically said hey, I need so much help from you. Go do the research, travel around, he did. He didn't like traveling to sell wives. You know, from now on, I'm not traveling. You do all the traveling. You know I was traveling all over the world and you know I didn't really know. You know how many bottles do I need to sell to justify a trip to Japan?

Dr Laura Catena:

You know, and I think that in business you really need to understand the money, because it's very easy to dream and to have ideas. There's always a lot of ideas, but then can you pay for them, and to have really good people working for you, you need to pay them. Well, that requires a lot of money. So, to be always conscious of how much it costs to do things and that's something that I wish I'd done more at the beginning, and you know I didn't, because my father is a specialist in money. You know he's an economist and I would recommend to everybody you don't need to be an economist to understand money. It's basic arithmetic, you know, and so be aware of how much things cost. That would be my other advice.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Dr Laura Katena, thank you so much for your insight, your storytelling, your legacy. I think there definitely needs to be a part two of this for us to delve more you know to the audience. Please explore the kateneinstitutecom Katena Zapata on Instagram In Defense of Wine. There is so much and I'll put all the links in the bio. Thank you so much for your time and telling your story. Thank you.

Dr Laura Catena:

Yeah, my Instagram is lauracatenamd At lauracatenamd Amazing. Okay, all right, thank you so much. Have a great weekend, you too, Bye-bye, bye.