The Trailblazers Experience Podcast

EP78 Kelly Vero Author & CEO NAK3D ; Code Like a Girl: Women Shaping Modern Tech

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EP78 Kelly Vero returns to the podcast to explore the hidden history of women in technology and her journey as a tech innovator, game developer, and author. Her latest book, "Breaking Through Bytes" uncovers remarkable female tech pioneers dating back to Ancient Egypt, challenging the narrative that women's contributions to technology.
• Kelly founded Nak3d, an AI-powered digital fashion factory that reduces waste by creating items only when there's demand
• Kelly's crime fiction writing has led to one of her books being developed into a TV series
• Many pioneering women had fathers as their first allies and supporters
• The next generation of tech users are cautious about AI but open to learning its benefits
• Finding your authentic passion is more important than following "passion influence" trends
• Career progression isn't linear—it's possible to pursue multiple passions simultaneously

Chapters
00:12 Intro to Kelly Vero 
03:06 Exploring Women's Contributions to Technology
06:56 Uncovering Hidden Figures in Tech History
11:13 The Power of Writing and Storytelling
15:51 Naked: Revolutionizing Fashion with AI
24:52 Inspiration from the Next Generation
29:48 Listening and Learning in Conversations
30:40 Embracing Passion and Curiosity
34:13 The Role of Influencers in Modern Society
38:15 Turning Hobbies into Careers
42:24 Balancing Passion and Practicality
46:35 Authenticity in a Copycat Culture
52:02 Takeaway Tips
53:33 Connecting with Kelly Vero
55:35 outro

Connect with Kelly Vero

LinkedIn (KVero) 

Twitter (@TheKellyVero) 

nakedxyz.

Breaking Through Bytes available on Amazon 


Watch on Youtibe ; https://youtu.be/SrMsGIZyLHM


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The Trailblazers Experience:

So welcome to another episode of the Trailblazers Experience Podcast, the podcast where we have candid conversations with women sharing their career journeys Reunion today. Actually, kelly Vero was one of my first guests. When I started the podcast two years ago, the podcast was like some pipe dream and I'm so happy to actually start as well. Stayed at it, really, and we're going to be driving into the intersection of AI technology, creative storytelling and not the AI that is letting you create some Barbie dollhouse version of yourself. You know the AI that makes a difference. But before we delve into that, introducing my guest, kelly, how are you?

Kelly Vero :

Oh, I'm so glad to be back and thank you for having me on and you know. Just a quick word about your amazing successes of the Trailblazer podcast, because this experience, the Trailblazer experience, has done so much to kind of lift women in this space and put a spotlight where most people wouldn't. So thank you.

The Trailblazers Experience:

I mean, it's a bit like paying it forward. I always think what is it I'd like to listen to? I'm curious about any woman who's whether you've started a business with a hundred euros or a hundred pounds and flipped it into a two million pound business, or you're now a CEO of another business, or you're blazing it in tech or music. It's just there's so many great things that we're doing and we just need to have that space to celebrate and talk about it. So thank you so much for bigging me up.

Kelly Vero :

Keep going. It's an easy job, honestly.

The Trailblazers Experience:

You're so great, but for the audience that doesn't know you. I've got here your bio that says you know. Kelly Vero is a creative, badass speaker. Digital leader, nft and metaverse rebel, fashion disruptor. Future gazer, game developer, tech investor. 30 years in the games industry, 10 years in blockchain, nft and crypto actively developing. Founder of Naked. Author written over 10 plus books, and now we're going to be talking about your latest book as well. Welcome to the podcast. I mean, look at that list of accolades.

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, it makes me sound like I'm like 80 years old because I've packed so much in. But yeah, I mean it is a lot, isn't it? I guess that it's because I'm incredibly curious. I just see things and I think, how does that work? And is it going to make my life simpler? Is it going to make things easier? Is it going to make processes faster? And yeah, I think that's one of the book.

Kelly Vero :

Talk to me about the inspiration, about writing it, firstly, and what are the themes and ideas that you're exploring are hidden, and they're either hidden because they've been forced to be hidden by, you know, the patriarchy in their society, or they've been forced to be hidden because they can't find a voice, role, models, that type of thing. I specifically wanted to focus on technology because I think it's very easy for us to write off that technology started with Ada Lovelace. Well, I thought that was pretty BS. So I started to go into history and find out whether that was true or not and I came with some of the craziest stories that you can possibly imagine about women creating as far back as 2000 years ago, before the common era. So during the Egyptian times, women were writing tech, creating technology, writing code.

The Trailblazers Experience:

I mean, and those are things that are not even taught in schools, isn't it? And it's about surfacing that and bringing it to life. And, you know, hopefully the algorithms are listening to us so that when someone does type in and search, that prompts it and it comes through. But what was the biggest discovery for you? Obviously, you set out to write the book, to expose and to magnify, amplify women and talk about technology as it's evolved. But what were some key findings for you where you were like wow, I didn't even know that this existed.

Kelly Vero :

I think there were a couple of interesting parts for me. The first one is that the science fiction era of Star Wars and blah blah blah started in the 1600s and probably before. Maybe during the Roman times, people were writing about travelling to space. You know, blah blah started in the 1600s and probably before. Maybe during the Roman times People were writing about traveling to space technologies, various mechanical things and bits and pieces. But then the other thing that I thought was really interesting was we've heard all about and I don't want to kind of play it down at all, but we've heard all about NASA's hidden women. By the way, those women are being hidden again.

Kelly Vero :

I wanted to focus a little bit more on women of different people of colour and people of different culture in our society today, and some of their stories really made me sort of go, what are you talking about? Are you actually serious? And so I wanted to scratch the surface. I definitely didn't want to make it at all about anything that I've ever done, and so I wanted to scratch the surface. I definitely didn't want to make it at all about anything that I've ever done, and what I wanted to do was really focus on some of these women living and dead and sort of find out how they were treated.

Kelly Vero :

It was disgusting. I mean, here's one for you Hedy Lamarr, she's a film actress, hollywood icon. She went to her bosses at MGM and said I want to help in the war effort for World War II. I've created this amazing piece of technology. And they said to her look at you, you're glamour, you're beauty, you're not brains. Go back to your trailer and we'll call you when it's time for you to come out onto the stage and go in front of the camera. And it was at that point in Tola that I just sort of thought I have to write about this, because the way that women are treated when they have these key ideas or they want to be able to be curious or they want to progress anything in society, they're just silenced. It was wrong.

The Trailblazers Experience:

I mean it's so good that you're even surfacing that, because even now there's research and stats that even say if there's a job description that is put on, you know, for a specific role, men will apply for it, even if they meet 60% of what's on there, whereas as women we want to meet 100% of the you know of the spec before we even say right, I'm going to go for this. And I think that mentality, that switch, that actually, if you just be a go-getter, if you are interested in a particular field, area of study, even at work, or if you're interested in starting a business, just go for it, because there is no point in wanting to have 100% of everything. You just need to start. So surfacing that, even through your book in terms of well, imagine if she'd listened to everything that had been said in that particular example, then we wouldn't have had the interesting innovation that she brought to the world.

Kelly Vero :

I was interested that a lot of these women as well, their role models were their fathers. Well, their role models were their fathers and it was their dads that were saying to them girl, you can do whatever you want to do, go and do it. So when people say, oh yeah, men are really blah, blah, blah, actually they're not dads are really supportive of their daughters.

Kelly Vero :

We are allies, I mean, and they're your first allies is your dad. Yeah, if you're fortunate to have a good relationship with your father and your father absolutely loves having a daughter, you don't have to be daddy's little girl if you don't want to be. He will also support you if you are curious about engineering or software or anything like this. You know.

The Trailblazers Experience:

We've got so many allies.

Kelly Vero :

That's the relationship I had with my dad when I was young, so I was so happy to read that a lot of these women had very close relationships with their dads.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Yeah, and to that point I mean we have so many allies, not just our dads, our brothers, our friends, even in the workplace, the amount of people in the industry or even in various sectors I've worked, who I can really just even now I've learned so much from and I'm so happy that I have that diversity of thought. And have you thought of this, intola? Oh, that's a good idea. Oh, let's do that. I mean we need that. We can't be. You know, feminism needs to exist, coexist with our male allies and counterparts, helping us drive that forward. That's so key.

Kelly Vero :

You're so right, yeah, you're so right. I don't like to kick people, I don't like to punch down. It's too easy to do that. And what I really wanted to explore was what were these role models? And, especially at a time like in the Egyptian era, who is going to be that woman's role model? What is it that made that woman create those algorithms so that she could predict the movement of the stars in the sky? Also, by the way, this woman called, oh God, agonike right, she was a princess.

The Trailblazers Experience:

She was royalty Kelly. What else would she have been?

Kelly Vero :

but I mean sitting around like reading books or doing needlework is not enough for and we instantly don't mean when we think about bridgerton or pride and prejudice or whatever, we just think well, they're sitting around all day just playing the piano and doing needlework. Actually, quite a lot of these noble women were figuring out ways that they could be, you know, powerful role models for other women so that they could bring them together. But society at large really saw them as being sorceress witches. You know, a lot of these witches that were tried were actually scientists.

The Trailblazers Experience:

They were trying to do something different. So circling back, kelly, I mean, writing is where did that even start for you? Writing is my superpower. Well, how did you even discover that? That was your superpower going back.

Kelly Vero :

Well, when I was 10 years old, I won a competition, a story writing competition, in my local newspaper. I was invited to our local council building to meet the Lord Mayor. I'd written this story about a ghost and he and he like awarded me with this like award and everybody that was there really sort of said you're the youngest person to win this award and you should really think about being a writer. Have said you're the youngest person to win this award and you should really think about being a writer. Of course I didn't had lots of cigarettes around the back of the bike sheds, kissed all the wrong boys and girls, did all the wrong stuff and was just like a total slacker for many years. I think largely because I was pretty neuro sort of atypical as well, I didn't get to go to university until I was 40. So I think a lot of the things that I did in my life I've got quite a lot of arrested development for, and so I needed to be curious about stuff in order to connect with those things. And I think the writing was I used to keep a diary, so everything that I did I would journalise and if I journaled these things later I would go back to them and go. That was really interesting. Let me go and find out more about X. I know everything from plants and I used to make my own face creams when I was sort of young and then write down what the recipes were. You know the things that made me break out blisters versus the things that made me look, you know, as a 10 year old like an eight year old. Wow, and I think those sort of things really seeing stuff and writing about it, being curious about things just drove me on as a writer.

Kelly Vero :

And then I got to a place where I could write about things professionally. That was in the video games industry. And then, moving through the video games industry, I did little bits on the side to kind of keep myself in rent and food on the table. So I used to write columns in magazines and I used to review records for magazines and write about fashion and newspapers and stuff. And, as we know from my previous appearance on the Trailblazers experience, I'm a failed fashion designer. I didn't get to do all of the things that people of my age did, so I'd just write about them, I'd imagine them, and then I would make these things magically manifest around me, I suppose through the power of storytelling. And then sort of five years ago I started writing about technology like much more. And here we are. I've written two business books and written about eight or 10, yeah, thick novels.

The Trailblazers Experience:

A lot of it is about massaging that muscle, isn't it? You kept going in terms of writing. So, whether it was journaling and then whether it was taking what were probably odd jobs at the time of writing a column here and there, if I think about your career and you're very accomplished, kelly, you need to give yourself enough props for that You're also a keynote speaker, so your ability to articulate and to communicate and storytell about your industry and specific subject matter I feel like it's come a lot from that creative writing and keeping on massaging that muscle and keeping it going.

Kelly Vero :

All these things are, though the first thing that I learned to write was code, and I couldn't do anything with that, largely because I was a girl as well. I mean, they didn't kind of like girls going into these industries, sort of. Back then, and I suppose, coming full circle in the book, I'm able to talk about a few of those resistances that I felt, either because of my neuroatypical position or also because of my gender. You know, just girls weren't allowed to do that stuff.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Yeah, and. I love the fact about in the book. You are really focusing on the history and then coming back to present as to you know all the. For someone who's curious and particularly wants to go into STEM and into coding, they have like a. It's like a little blueprint, isn't it Like a little black book you've created, in a way?

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, and also it is women shaping the modern technology. I don't want us to think about, you know, xr as being something that is gendered in any way. I don't think technology should be gendered kind of at all, but certainly some of the big strides that are being made in things like XR or fashion, you know, I've never really understood and I'm sure you haven't either why at the top of these big fashion empires are men, because it's actually women that are doing all of the innovative and technological leaps, not dudes. So I tried to kind of shine a light on these kind of unseen and unrecognized women, because they're the ones you should be keeping your eye on, the ones that are alive. I kind of did these sort of conversations between women who had passed away in the recent time, that we know, of legendary women and then or forgotten women and women who are doing something similar now.

Kelly Vero :

So, for example, I did Delia Derbyshire, who created the Doctor who theme, but I also put her alongside Kayleigh Oliver, who does FOPS, which is recognising Black Britain. She created an app and she created an entire educational pathway for people to think about. You know Black Britons throughout history and she is a coder. You know she's a programmer, she's a game developer. I really wanted to put her in there because she was also using code to tell a story, whereas Delia Derbyshire was using code to write music.

The Trailblazers Experience:

I mean, I love the fact that you are making it current as well, isn't it Because you want someone to be able to read the book and say, right, I can relate to that. This is actually happening right now and this is inspiration. Hopefully it feels. Even just looking on, whether it's TikTok or Doyen or you know all the other platforms globally, there are some really interesting women coming out there. I'm very optimistic about the future of women in coding and technology, so it's a good time to be alive in this space.

Kelly Vero :

I think so, but also I've been, I felt, very pessimistic about women in recent years. I think now we're coming back into a golden age where we're not really kind of sort of saying hey, look at me, I'm a woman. What we're saying is, look at my code.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Yeah, look at what I'm doing. Look at what I'm doing, yeah it's amazing. Yeah, let's talk about Naked, your AI tech company. What's going on there, what's the driving vision and how is the company using AI to create meaningful innovations in technology? Because, first of all, I love the play on words with naked in there. So, guys, it's not about OnlyFans or some sort of sordid connection You'd be surprised, though that's why we're at the top of Google. Really yeah, people are constantly looking for nudes, and then your company comes up instead. Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Vero :

And then they're just like oh, it's a middle-aged woman with their clothes on.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Tell the listeners about Naked and the brand and what it's about, what sets it apart from everybody else.

Kelly Vero :

Well, we're a digital fashion factory that does everything. So you know, we can start by being wasteful and creating the pattern, block, the twirl, all of that kind of stuff, or we can use no-code technology to do a lot of things for us. So it's about we've got loads of design kind of tools to help fashion designers create, but we don't have a lot of tools that do the entire end-to-end. So, from the idea all the way out to the merchandisement in the stores etc. And we tend to in the fashion industry use lots of different tools to do lots of different things for us. And I wanted to be able to kind of compress all of those things into one no-code platform where people don't have to learn, they don't have to have a tutor. I see a lot of people at the moment that are teaching people how to use sort of a piece of design technology and I just sort of think why you could just use Naked and put I want to create a black t-shirt with Singaporean or Malaysian writing on it, go, and it would do that in less than 10 minutes at Naked. So I didn't use AI. Originally. Everything was done pretty manually and was automated. So there's a difference between AI, which is artificial intelligence, and automation, which is the speed with which you have these modular pieces that make things happen inside a system.

Kelly Vero :

And then we went to kind of full AI September of last year and we've got this great platform where you literally have three things. You can either bulk upload your PLM documentation, your product lifecycle management detail like SKUs and product codes, et cetera, and it will create the item from that. You've also got the text search so you can say I'm looking for a winter jacket or a black t-shirt. Or you can just have like pure inspo. You can sort of either put your own item in there like as a sketch, and it'll create an item for you, or just use a bunch of different keywords and it will look for things or even say you know, I love what Antola's wearing. Here's a picture of Entola. Make me that outfit that she's got on right now and it will do that for you. Then from there they are created as full tech packs which can go directly into logistics and manufacturing with the DPP. So that's the new feature of this year We've added the DPP Digital product passports for those who don't know.

Kelly Vero :

Yes, very current, yes, and then that can go either into Roblox video games. I mean, we're doing this fantastic don't really know if I'm allowed to talk about it, but I'm gonna we're doing this fantastic collection for the 50th anniversary of the Rocky Horror show, where we're creating an entire collection for Rocky Horror with full DPP as an NFT, as a snap filter, as a digital item that you can wear in a game, as a product that will go into manufacture. But it only goes into manufacture when people want it, and I think that's the difference. We've been creating these samples. Then we've been filling the stores with 200, 300 versions of this one t-shirt and only three or four people are buying it, you know, in a season. So what's the point in being that wasteful? Where are you going to put those t-shirts? I didn't want to do that at all.

The Trailblazers Experience:

It's brilliant, especially when we're thinking about Kelly, sustainability, and you know the whole end to end of our how we consume and how we make products. You know, to begin with, so, the fact that technology is at the forefront of how can we make life easier and be sustainable and think about our planet. But also, you know, for the person doing the job working in that particular department, making life easier for them, automation, not having to we know it's an Excel world, merchandises and so on. It's still very, very much Excel-led at the moment.

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, but we've got some great clients. You know that we work with Lulu Guinness, but we've also been working with Beulah Rocky Horror, just on a project with Clarence. I mean, it's slowly happening, but I think you know all your kind of good vibes there with what it is that you just said. I think there are a lot of people that still think oh no, I must do it this way. This is the traditional way of doing it and I think we're just moving out of that traditional time now. We've just got to stop thinking traditionally and start thinking about what we're going to be doing five years, 10 years from now. That's how some of these preordained roles inside industries are created, because people don't think about the future, they just enjoy living day to day and they don't see that there's anything wrong with what it is that they're doing. And that's how you end up with the same CEO for the next 30, 40 years.

The Trailblazers Experience:

I'm just saying no names mentioned you recently. I loved that you posted on LinkedIn that you were inspired by the students who you recently spoke to. Was it last week or last two weeks? Talk to me about how the next generation is inspiring and motivating you, because a lot of the times isn't it? When we are in talks, we're being asked what motivates us. You know, how are we finding our mojo, how are we being inspired? But if you're post about actually, I'm learning a lot, I'm being motivated and inspired by them. Talk to me about that.

Kelly Vero :

Well, I think one of the main points of inspiration from the event that I did at Vogue was how much I got challenged on using AI, because I think the misinformation is that a lot of people have seen this, that AI is being a bad thing, and you know, I countered that by saying well, okay, if you're going to go to Shanghai Fashion Week, how are you going to get there? And they said by plane, of course. And I said but what about your CO2 footprint then? So what I'm doing is terrible by using AI, but surely what you're doing is as bad, because you're going to Shanghai Fashion Week from California, around the other side of the world. And so what I wanted to be able to get them to understand was balance, but also what they taught me was compromise. In the end, I think it was important for me to understand.

Kelly Vero :

They are very angry about all of the things that we just talked about previously sustainability, circularity. They're very angry about it, but no one's telling them the small changes that they can make in their lives to combat that. And so, because they're not there yet, they had to teach me a little bit about compromise, and I couldn't just go in there and drop the bomb of AI and say this is going to take all your problems away, because they just weren't ready for that. But now, I think a week later, I've had quite a lot of messages from them saying we're not afraid anymore. We've been using it a little bit more and we see that AI has actually got quite good sort of tools embedded in it to speed our ability to do our work or allow us to go to Shanghai without getting on a plane, for example.

Kelly Vero :

I think those things are really important, but what I learned from them was that they weren't ready and I am, and a lot of people around me are. You are, but I think they're not because they they. Vogue is a very traditional publication anyway, so I think they're surrounded by very traditional KPIs, but I think we'll see in the next five years that those KPIs will change massively and you know they will teach us, they will inspire us much more they're getting interesting about, about Vogue, because I remember when, um, you know, rest, rest the soul of my mom she used to buy every issue of Vogue and I loved, you know, seeing all the editorials and just imagining myself being in that world.

The Trailblazers Experience:

But the first actually business that digitized fashion and bringing you know editorials to life was literally Net-A-Porter, you know, you could download and you had these movable, shoppable images and then they'd have all the columns, but then they'd also have a segment and I was like, wow, this is really cool, I like this, but I'm also craving buying that magazine. But really, if I can have it on my tablet and still be immersed in that world, once again saving on that footprint, I feel like what you experienced was, when we're talking about AR and technology, whatever industry or sector, we have to think about how we can break it down into bite-sized chunks, of how it can drive positive change and solve real-world problems, isn't it?

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, I mean, I don't think we realise sometimes, yourself included, how deep we are embedded inside the world of technology and innovation. We assume that everybody else around us is as involved in it, and that's just not true, antone. It's just not true. So I learned a lot. I just had to shut my mouth sometimes God imagine me shutting my mouth but I did and I listened and, I think, listening to them, they had beef and we needed to listen to it.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Is that the maturity that comes with it in terms of? You know, I say I'm always learning, learning to listen and absorb. That's come over time. Has that also come over time for you as well, in terms of absorbing what people are saying and then saying, right, okay, this is what I'm getting from this conversation. Let's discuss, you know, versus. I am telling you this right now and this is what you need to listen to. Has that come over time, kelly, like a fine wine?

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, yeah, like a fine wine. I think there is a very. There's a dichotomy, isn't there always, between passion and arrogance, and I think you have to learn. When I was younger obviously incredibly arrogant, very wild, always in trouble thought I knew everything. But my friends think I'm really boring now because I'm nowhere near as wild as I was 20, 30 years ago. But I think I'm now passionate. I'm now really passionate. I don't know everything and it bugs me that I don't know everything. I need to be passionate about that curiosity even more than I've ever been before, but don't knock yourself down again.

The Trailblazers Experience:

I feel the fact that you were rebellious has helped you get to where you are, because you were curious about trying different things. You know pushing yourself forward in the gaming industry. You've just been. I don't think you've ever seen a door. You've seen. Actually, I need to bulldozer through this because there is a way or I'm going to go through the back door or the window to get to where I need to go.

Kelly Vero :

I think you know me way too well now, after two of these Trailblazer Experience podcasts, I'm really like headstrong and I surround myself with women who are headstrong, you know, and that is really problematic if you get all a bunch of headstrong women in a room together, because even if we're not in the room together, one of us will, you know, set off a bomb or some kind of incendiary device to get in that room.

Kelly Vero :

I think that is the, the source of all of our, our abilities and our, and the reason why a lot of us, yourself included, I really look up to you. I think you're just amazing, but I think you're up here and I think all women think the women we love are all up here and we need to get there and we've got to find a way to get into that room inside Intola's head or around Intola's aura or orbit, you know. And so I think a lot of women do that. They gravitate towards other women and we gravitate towards the truth or the seed of that thing. It's like a scratch, isn't it? An itch we can't scratch, like ever.

The Trailblazers Experience:

That drives us on crazily yeah, I saw an Instagram post that, um, I think it was a front one of my friends. He's like uh, she's a proper bra influencer and and inspiring in that industry and really talks about body positivity and, you know, embracing the shape that you have and making sure you have the right bra size and so on. I'm going to actually shout her out, so we're wonderful.

Kelly Vero :

Oh yeah, has she been on the podcast? Get her on. Yes, she has?

The Trailblazers Experience:

Yeah, but she needs to come on again because she's doing some amazing things. And one of the things she said is I will no longer surround myself with, you know, negative energies, things that are watching, things that are not serving me in any way. I need to make sure that what I'm consuming from content, people, what I wear, what I eat, what I do, is all feeding me in this positive light, and it's a mindset and a lifestyle in itself. You know, the same way we wake up and say, right, we're going to brush our teeth, you have to again massage that muscle of saying, right, if I'm manifesting and say I'm going to position my life in this way, you have to keep on with it.

Kelly Vero :

You can't just and it works, you know. Oh yeah, definitely, if you manifest, you make those little changes. You know, oh yeah, definitely, if you manifest, you make those little changes. You know, brush your teeth, for you know, if you want super teeth, like yours.

The Trailblazers Experience:

You brush them for an extra. I've got super teeth. It's all about turkey teeth right now, kelly, you know we're really missing out, aren't we?

Kelly Vero :

what do you think about influencers generally?

The Trailblazers Experience:

just gonna throw you a question for a change I think they are still completely necessary and I think what's changed is I always take on the example when I was in china how they've positioned. They've got key opinion leaders, key opinion consumers, and the key opinion consumers are where it's heading, even in the western world, where austin lee, the lipstick king yeah, he was a key opinion leader, but not a key opinion consumer.

Kelly Vero :

He was a consumer to start off with, though, wasn't he? Yeah, when he started off exactly, but how authentic.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Everyone is looking for an authentic influence, someone who they can relate to and then be gravitated towards that brand. And, as we see new brands emerging, that is how they're building their tribes. That is how they're getting that customer base. That is how they're penetrating and getting them to shop more. It's no longer about oh, just hire Nicole Kidman or George Clooney and put them on some packaging and see what happens.

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, celebrities are not influencers in my opinion, and influencers are not celebrities. No, exactly, but they beat people.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Such aren't they?

Kelly Vero :

I know, and that really drives me crazy, because I love influencers. I think they tell us so much about the things that we're not lacking because I think that's the wrong word but they tell us so much about ourselves and the things that we probably haven't paid as much attention to. And if we are interested in those things, like I follow, I haven't had alcohol or sugar for like a couple of years now and I follow this guy on TikTok and he does like sugar-free food. But he started this entire sugar-free thing because his dad got really sick and he wanted to create treats for his dad because his dad loves sugary stuff. So he found a way around it. But he's not one of these sort of celebrity type people. He's just saying make these little changes. So it's what I was saying before. If you do one little thing in your day and manifest where it is you want to be, eventually you'll be like me and you won't miss Harry Bowes at all.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Well, I'll give a good example of someone who is an influencer but she's really authentic, is Candice and Candice, please don't shoot me down for pronouncing your surname incorrectly Brathwaife she started a fitness journey where she called it her day one, where she committed to running on her peloton every day and she's lost a substantial amount of weight. She's done a high rocks. She's running the London Marathon in a few weeks and she's through that. She's become a peloton ambassador Now. I completely endorse that because she's put the work in. You can see her journey. She's been authentic. She's talked about manifesting. She's written a book called Manifesto, so she's embodied it. In terms of the power of influence is all about being authentic and true to herself and good on her, right on for her being a Peloton, you know, ambassador, for that it's like wow, and that's what we need more of, you know.

Kelly Vero :

I think I like people who can turn hobbies into careers. Well, yes, yeah, people who like, because that's passion, isn't it? That's like I'm passionate about, you know, keeping fit, she's obviously said at the beginning from day one, she showed everybody what a day one looks like. She needed to make those changes in her life and now she's reaping the rewards by turning a passion or a hobby into a job or a career.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Fantastic, brilliant. And it circles back to, I guess, why you started writing as well, isn't it, I guess?

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, but I didn't really ever think. I really always thought that these stories would be for me. I didn't think anybody really. I liked to read them to my parents and stuff when I was younger, but I didn't ever really think that people would actually pick up one of the books that I've read and say that's amazing. Or even you know, one of my fiction books be made into a TV series, which it is, and so I think because of that, it's all very unexpected really and I'm very nerdy, it has to be said. So I'm not the kind of person that is very good at taking compliments. I'm amazing at giving them.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Well, kelly I mean you just dropped a little mic drop there that one of your books is being made into a series. Can we talk about that?

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, I'm really excited about it actually, but I'm very hands off because I wrote the book. But one of the books that I wrote, called Summer Girl, yeah is being sort of developed into a. I write crime fiction. I'm like Hannah Montana by day I'm a tech nerd, by night I'm a crime fiction writer. And, yeah, the series kind of got picked up and it's been developed at the moment into a TV series. So Watch this Space is about a very hot guy who's 500 years old and we find out why he's so old, and he solves crimes with the rest of his friends on an island in the Mediterranean called Malta.

The Trailblazers Experience:

I mean, I love that. I'm going to be looking forward to seeing that. So how does that actually work? Because we know Reese Witherspoon started book clubs so that she could listen to what women were reading and then through that, that's how she's developed scripts and the rights to the movies that she's sold.

Kelly Vero :

She's so smart though, isn't she? She's so smart, unbelievable.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Who would have thought? What a great way. So get a focus group together, find out what they're interested in and then make those into films. Brilliant. How does that work in terms of? So have you sold the rights? Do you still retain some ownership?

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I retain the ownership to the books and the characters and the series, but, yeah, the rights are acquired. So you usually get something called an option and in an option term you're given a period of time with which this script, book, whatever has to be developed. Now, in my case, they were really just interested in the book, which happens quite a lot these days. You know some of the things that you've seen that are turned into television series.

Kelly Vero :

You usually start off as books and, yeah, I just wrote it and then it was acquired. And then the people who have acquired it, the production company, said we're going to find a script developer, we're going to find a director, we're going to do all the casting and we're going to take care of the rest. And I was like cool, great, I hope you do it, like loads of justice, they will. They keep coming back to me saying what do you think about you know, chris Hemsworth? Or what do you think about you know whatever for this role? And yeah, yeah, well, if you, if you need a plus one for the uh, for the launch uh party, I'm available. I'm telling you we're going down to the set, gonna go on another one of your holidays.

The Trailblazers Experience:

They've got spas there and everything exactly I mean, just right up my alley, I'm about that lifestyle, but I just love how really it's coming full circle in terms of. It's a lot about follow your passion, follow what you're interested in, follow what you're doing, because it could well it will lead to lots of different adventures, lots of different turns in your life, in your career. But no, career progression is linear, isn't it?

Kelly Vero :

No, but also I think that it's about it's really weird, because a lot of women are like this I am a, you're a mother, I am not a mother, I'm a. I've never had those kind of like maternal feelings, but obviously a lot of women become mothers and they have to balance their career. How do they do that? You know a few of the women that I spoke to in the book as well. I was like how, how are you doing this? You've got quite a lot that's going on and I think I feel a little bit like the books are my children in a way, and I'm trying to bring them up. I'm also trying to create new babies, sort of all the time, but then I have to remember that's not putting food on the table for at least five or 10 years when someone picks up the book and goes oh, I want to turn this into something. So what am I going to do in the meantime?

Kelly Vero :

There are other things that spark my curiosity, other things that challenge me, but I've got to be really realistic. I also have to put food on the table. I have to be quite kind of serious about my day job. So I think sometimes when I meet people and they say you wrote this book about. You know this fictional character based on this island. I thought you were a tech person, like can't I be both? Well, that's it, I think. And that's what mothers that's the same problem that mothers have, kind of, in a way. You're not allowed to be just a woman. You've got to be a mother, or a tech leader, or a carer or a fiction book writer.

The Trailblazers Experience:

You can't be everything. Why not? I think you've just mentioned a really important point in terms of being realistic, because you need to have something that is like your stable income and then all the other things you're interested in doing them on the side. I mean, it would have been really sad if you were just pushing the author area, but you've got to sustain your sneaker obsession and things like that. So it's all these things, but no. On a serious note, I think it's really great advice that, yes, have passions, have things that you are interested in, but also have a focus in terms of things that will sustain you as well. It's really key.

Kelly Vero :

And there's something else that I discovered recently talking to a younger person. So, like you, I also mentor women that are coming up in technology. And I'm not as good as you, of course. You're part of a much bigger technology and I'm not as good as you, of course, you're part of a much bigger organisation. And I spent a bit of time with her and I sort of said to her let's have a look at the work that you're doing at the moment. You know what's putting food on the table for you. And she sort of showed me and I was like that's really cool, that looks really great. And then she said but this is what I'm really passionate about. And honestly, I wanted to have a conversation with her and I did where I sort of said to her that her passions are really important to her but that she shouldn't piggyback on the passions of everybody else. So almost as though passion has become passion fluence.

Kelly Vero :

So people see these things and they think, oh, I really like what that person's done. There, I'm going to do the same thing. And then you see this kind of homogenised vibe going on, like we saw in the pandemic. Remember where? The reason why everybody's got these crazy lashes and these amazing different types of gloss that are all in the same shade of brown is because during that period nobody wanted to look different, nobody wanted to be different. It was a psychological reaction, and I think we're having a similar sort of career reaction currently, which I'm trying really hard to quell at the moment. But I think I see that around a lot of young women that are coming into different industries and technology. They all want to be like somebody that they saw on tiktok, that they've never met.

The Trailblazers Experience:

So it's back to that influencer thing it's a bit like also everyone is starting a podcast, everyone's podcasting now I think yours has been going for two years, girl, and I was looking at the whole economics around it.

The Trailblazers Experience:

That a, I guess because it's a medium that people can freely express themselves. You know, they're not having to pitch to networks or syndicates. In terms of right, this is my idea and it getting to the bottom of the pile, so it's sort of well, let's just do it ourselves. And you could see, especially in London, there are lots of podcast recording studios and engineers and it's great if it's creating another economy for people to feed off. But yeah, it's passion influences. You're calling it Find your own passion, something that is authentically you, because, yeah, there's a lot of copycat.

Kelly Vero :

Are we afraid, though, to do that now? Are we afraid to find our passion and go hello, I'm really into stamp collecting, this is my TikTok or whatever Almost as though we've got to kind of borrow a passion sometimes because we feel like we can't truly be ourselves?

The Trailblazers Experience:

I think so too. It's that being afraid to be your authentic self because you might not fit the mold, you might not be invited, you know to the clubs that you are striving to become part of, and, interestingly enough, isn't it? The further you rise at the top, the more lonely it actually is, isn't it? I wouldn't know, antola, but the circle is smaller. I mean, if you think about in your specific niche and industry, you're a keynote speaker, you are a tech founder, you've worked in the games industry. When you look at how many women are at that level, it's very few, so it's becoming smaller. The more accomplished then you become.

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, but I'll be dead soon, so there's plenty of space.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Girl, you're going to be here for a very long time.

Kelly Vero :

Like a cockroach.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Warren Buffett is still here.

Kelly Vero :

Funny you mention him. He's like. I do really like the things that he says. Actually, I think he is quite sage, he really is. He's well balanced.

The Trailblazers Experience:

He's just a balanced guy who has just used certain principles that are standing true, isn't it? I think he's never rushed to do anything, which is why he's amassed all this wealth over time, and we live in a world and a generation where people want it now. Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Vero :

Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? It is. It is Because you want to constantly be creating content, you want to constantly be doing and you want to be seen to be doing. And that's why every year, we hear from Warren Buffett, because he sends out his little results of I'm the Sage of Omaha, don't forget. He tells us all of the little things that he's done and what he's doing to kind of combat world poverty with his philanthropic bits and pieces.

Kelly Vero :

But then, on the flip side of the coin, you've got these kind of I've got 78 million followers on TikTok and I'm making like $20 a second or whatever. It's probably $200 a second, I don't know, in China probably. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and everything's happening. So quickly you get up to that point. Then you just there's a point at which you're going to dive. I've seen a lot of people recently, lately, I don't know about you, in places like LinkedIn, where they've popped back up and I've thought where have you been? I thought you were at the top of your game a couple of years ago. And they're like, oh, I crashed and burned and now I'm starting again. I just think, well, good for you, that site, really great.

The Trailblazers Experience:

But it wasn't so long ago that you're telling everyone they're an idiot yeah, and and again, that's another thing with passion influence, where it's a trend of people now talking about their burnouts and everything on linkedin, and it's another trend as well, that that we've seen. But I guess, as long as people just remain human, coming back to being authentic, isn't it just be authentic, be, and that, hopefully, should be enough to get you through.

Kelly Vero :

For Warren Buffett to hire us at Berkeley.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Hathaway. No, that's not the aspiration. The aspiration is for Naked to continue to do the great things that it's doing and, you know, continue to make an impact as well. That's what I think.

Kelly Vero :

Industry impact. Yeah, Like super important To me, if nothing, if it is not a runaway global success, which I hope that it is. If it's one thing people take away, it's that conversation I had at Vogue that, yes, you created all this stuff, but we have to do things in small steps. We take you now, but five years from now we might create something better. And if that happens, five years from now, we might create something better. And if that happens five years from now, where those people have created something better off the back of seeing something like AI, then my job is done.

The Trailblazers Experience:

That's it. Well, we're coming to the end of the podcast and I know that you're a seasoned keynote speaker inspiring audiences around the world. So if there was a message or a focus or themes that you'd sing right, you're leaving with the audience. What would they be?

Kelly Vero :

Actually, you said it at the beginning of the podcast and that was about finding your tribe. I've always thought that people around you who are like you but not necessarily you know that you want to copy them or do whatever. Find those voices that sound like your voice. You know those people the women in my book, for example artisans you know. Some of them work in fashion technology, some of them work in blockchain and web3, some of them work in video games. Find those people that sound like you, you know. See those people that look like you, but don see those people that look like you, but don't be those people. Be your own person. Just find that tribe and surround yourself with those people. Surround yourself with critics. Don't manifest doom, love it.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Well, those were the takeaway tips. Kelly, it's been such a pleasure having you on again. Before we wrap up, can you tell our listeners how they can connect with you, learn about and explore Naked and find your latest book? Let's get people on there.

Kelly Vero :

Okay, my general contacty bits are you can find me at LinkedIn KVero Always go for the connect button, not the follow, and you can also find me at Twitter or X, whatever it's called. These days the Kelly Vero is me, and I'm actually not on Instagram because I can't stand Mark Zuckerberg, but you can find me at my lovely little website, which is Naked. It's about N-A-K-3-D, so that's Nakedxyz and N nakedxyz, and nakedxyz is pretty much everywhere, and I'm going to be next speaking in May at Tech Founders in Dublin where I'm going to be talking about the history of women in technology, actually called the Woman who, and then, following that, I'm going to be probably in your town doing something kind of really weird and exciting about technology. But there we go From Amazon. Breaking Through Bites is the name of the book and it's written by me again, kelly Verrett. And yes, they are my legs. I was about to ask whose legs are those? Girl, mine, girl, in the days when I had decent ankles. These days, I've got cankles, that's why I?

Kelly Vero :

wear sneakers.

The Trailblazers Experience:

Right listeners, be sure to get in touch with Kelly. Remember to follow us. We are the Trailblazers Experience. We're on all social platforms Connect, follow, share, tell another woman about the podcast and thank you for tuning in to the podcast. Until then, next time, stay inspired and, yeah, bye. Thanks for having me. Bye.