The Trailblazers Experience Podcast

EP44 Sally Heath Minto: Charting a Progressive Path in your Career

• Ntola • Season 3 • Episode 44

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Sally 's story isn't just a career narrative; it's a masterclass in adaptability and seizing the ever-evolving opportunities of the retail and beauty industries. From her serendipitous start on the shop floor to her trailblazing strides in e-commerce, Sally's journey is a testament to the power of not adhering to a grand plan in a world where technology turns on a dime. If you've ever questioned the importance of versatility in your professional path or how to pivot with poise, Sally's reflections, filled with personal anecdotes and hard-earned wisdom, will resonate deeply.

This episode isn't just about recounting milestones; it's about the rich tapestry woven from every decision and opportunity that comes our way. Sally takes us through her transformative work at New Look, her bold advocacy for her own worth, and the joy found in lifting others as they climb the corporate ladder. Her insights into the gender dynamics within the workplace and the critical role of nurturing a supportive team environment will make you reconsider how you approach leadership and team building. And for the many balancing career ambitions with family life, Sally's experiences are a guiding light on how to navigate these challenging waters without sacrificing one's personal goals.

Turning the page to Revolution Beauty's inclusive mission, we gain first-hand knowledge of what it means to democratize an industry and the relentless passion required to maintain a customer-centric approach that truly listens to feedback. Sally's dedication to crafting an enriching work culture and her bold moves in creating the Revolution Academy highlight the significance of inclusivity and development of future talent. By the time we wrap up our conversation with Sally, you'll feel equipped with a newfound perspective on leadership, the power of community, and the balance of personal and professional fulfillment—all shared over a candid dialogue that's as enlightening as it is inspiring.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
02:08 Starting in Retail
05:32 Transition to E-commerce
06:45 Importance of Human Connection
08:30 Challenges Faced by Women in the Workplace
09:56 Resilience and Overcoming Challenges
11:36 Leadership and Empowering Others
22:49 Imposter Syndrome and Cultural Fit
28:51 Building a Strong Team
29:40 The Importance of Company Culture
30:34 Aligning with Business Values
32:50 Revolutionizing the Beauty Industry
35:06 Working with a Spouse
39:12 Self-Care and Work-Life Balance
50:14 Supporting Entrepreneurs
54:14 Trailblazer Takeaway Tips

Find Sally :https://www.linkedin.com/in/sally-h-aba78a23/ 
https://youtu.be/lM40GbExYaI

Listen : to the audio version Apple Spotify .Amazon Music Google Podcasts
Watch and subscribe to my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@Thetrailblazersexperience
Follow Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/thetrailblazersexperience/

The Trailblazers Experience :

Welcome to another episode of the Trailblazers Extends podcast highlighting in real life trailblazer women sharing candid conversations about their career journeys. My guest today is Sally Heath Minto, a seasoned professional with over 20 years experience in retail, e-commerce and digital as a senior leader, having gone from the shop floor to e-commerce director to digital director for a myriad of fashion brands and, most recently, beauty. Welcome, sally, how are you? Hi? Thank you so much for having me Such a pleasure. I think it's always an honor, you know, when we have guests on the podcast who have lived and breathed it and are killing it in the game, and I just, you know, find it so great that we get to share your story and just hill about how it all started.

Sally Heath Minto :

Yeah, thank you, and you know it's very important to me. I, you know, talking to a friend only just this past week who was one of my colleagues at New Look, and we were just reflecting on how important it is that we reflect and understand that our experience and the things that we've gone through is such a you know, it can be such an inspiration for younger generation and it's important for us to share our stories to our female community and really help to support them as they go through their careers as well. So hopefully our conversation will do something towards that.

The Trailblazers Experience :

You'll be awesome, and what we want to do in this world that is so diverse and inclusive is, you know, showcase people in various lights, because there's someone who, a young girl, out there, who looks like you, looks like me, who's just trying to figure out how do I navigate this thing called life, and professional life as well, so absolutely.

Sally Heath Minto :

Yeah, great.

The Trailblazers Experience :

Thank you very much, sally let's kick off just talking about your journey and how it started. How does someone like you end up in retail and rise through the ranks?

Sally Heath Minto :

Well, it's funny, actually, because, you know, when you do something like this, you start to really reflect on your life and you think how did I get here? Because one of the things I think that's really important to get across here is that, you know, when I started out from university, there were jobs and industries that didn't even exist yet, right? So that's a really important point. Number one is to say that actually, you know there will be jobs that you'll have in the future that you couldn't have even conceived of, you know, at that particular point. And so, therefore, trying to have a grand plan is probably flawed, particularly in today's age, which is driven much more, you know, in a rapid pace through technology, and I think on a previous podcast you talked about the sixth industrial revolution being the AI, and I've just been listening to it on the TV. So it's like you know it's coming for us, isn't it? So, you know, let's, let's try not to stress about what that really means at the moment, and certainly, if I was graduating now, I tell myself to chill out a bit about having a grand plan, and I certainly didn't have one.

Sally Heath Minto :

But actually, you know, I've been on the shop floor in Topshop since I was 16, I worked through university in retail. So I thought naturally my place was in retail and I got grad offers for, you know, shop for retail management. But I decided at the last minute not to take them because that's what I could do, not what I wanted to do. What I really wanted to do was be a fashion buyer. Once you work in a shop, you were your unpacked boxes and you see products and I had just had this knack of being able to see what was going to go into markdown. So I was like, well, I could do this. This sounds like a great job. But one of the stumbling blocks was that I didn't have a fashion degree and at that time the at the Burton group as they were there before Arcadia, I'm so old, anyway they didn't have the right degree. So I had to be a bit more creative about how I were getting a job in that industry.

Sally Heath Minto :

So my first job, funny enough, was actually in beauty At QVC. They were just expanding in the UK. At the time they were an American company, they'd been five years in the UK and they were expanding their buying and merchandising team. So I had to go and have an interview to decide which one I might be, and I had to sell her jacket to the buyer. So I obviously passed that test and they decided that I would qualify for a job in buying.

Sally Heath Minto :

But actually, when I think about it, one of the actual reasons why I think I got the job was because at the end of the interview she asked me if I smoked and I said, well, yes, actually I do, because obviously it was the 90s and everyone did.

Sally Heath Minto :

And she said, well, let's get outside for a cigarette, and I think part of that the human connection, I think was one of the things that actually got it over the line, ironically. Anyway, so I had a. Anyways, it's funny being in that environment because at that time it was very innovative selling product through a screen, which is obviously latterly what we've come to know as more e-commerce. So I found it really strange to some degree. But what I loved the most was actually when you started off an hour and then you would see the stock units falling off the computer screen and I found that so exciting and tangible and actually totally a precursor for that kind of data piece that we see around sales and online. So anyway, but ultimately I did feel it was a bit of an odd way to start a career in retail, and so I went to find a more traditional role and started at House of Fraser working in Women's Designer.

The Trailblazers Experience :

Interesting, sally, that you say that about QVC. That was exactly what you said, the precursor to us analyzing that real time sales data analytics and the QVC model. You're hearing it in your ear. It's being sold. These amount of minutes remaining, and today probably, they're not asking you to go out for cigarettes. They're asking you what you're doing in your spare time. You doing a yoga, do you?

Sally Heath Minto :

run. Exactly, the important point is to get camaraderie. Yeah, the point is to connect on any level and that will change over a period of time, but absolutely yes. But I really remember the tangible and how that and that never left me. So that kind of came back to me later on and I had an amazing experience at House of Fraser.

Sally Heath Minto :

I was in my 20s. It was very admin based, it was very. It was all PR, it was fashion buyers, it was all everything you imagine that a fashion devil wears Prada type environment that it was. But the social part of that was really important to me, which is something I'll touch on later around. That's where I made my friends is that we could all go to the pub after work, moan about our jobs, but ultimately made friends for life and networks for life in the workplace as well.

Sally Heath Minto :

And I guess, being that that was the late 90s and into the 90s, it was a time really which I reflect on around how much women were objectified in the workplace, despite the fact that retail predominantly is for women, because women are most of the shoppers, or at least were then. And yet something about the fact that the phenomena of the career women meant that women had to sacrifice so much to get to the top. You know, all the female leaders in the business didn't have formidable characters, they were super scary. I mean, one of them used to walk past my desk and I'd sit up straight. You know, it was kind of that sort of environment and it was very much this kind of feeling that to get on, you had to. You know, you had to be, you had to be feisty, you had to be nasty, you had to trample all over everyone to get to the top. When I look back now in a slightly unemotional way, because at the time it was really tough you know all the women that are in my network that worked in those environments that time will totally know what I mean. But actually, if we look at it, they were the pioneers. Really. They were the pioneers for paving the way for our generation, because we all turn around and went no, that's not for us, Thanks. You know we would like to have a bit more of a work-life balance. They were tough and they were hideous, but they paved the way. They paved for the way for us to be able to do something different with our careers. So, even though it wasn't perfect all the way. I think that my generation and below have certainly tried to challenge more of the status quo about how you get work-life balance and certainly the women raising women. We're a lot of. That came a lot later and you know, and I definitely know, that my generation has been much more, you know, passionate about supporting women that come behind us. So you know, nothing is perfect. There's still lots of work to do, but definitely I think things have improved over the time.

Sally Heath Minto :

I think that role also taught me a lot about politics within the workplace and how much you should give. I was actually. I love that role. I was there for eight years and I was maybe redundant during a takeover of the business and a change of regime and it was the first time that maybe I was a bit naive to the fact that you can't give everything to a business because it won't necessarily give it back to you and sometimes, just because there's a business regime change that your face just doesn't fit. It's not that you're not good at your job, because technically, on paper, I was and my results were there, but it was actually really tough to deal with the fact that at that particular point, because I was part of the old regime that my face didn't fit anymore, so I had to pick myself up and get on with it.

Sally Heath Minto :

And so one of my greatest beliefs is, you know and I like to think of myself as really resilient, and there's been lots of times when I've had to really really call that and inside me to be to get over the current problems.

Sally Heath Minto :

But some of the times you realise that things are stepping stones, that they had to happen for something else to happen later on. That at the time doesn't make any sense, but does you know further in the future? And so in my advice to people is you know, it might not make sense now, it might be really difficult. Sometimes you've just got to stick your heels in and deal with it and cope with it, but actually later on you'll realise that hang on, that was meant to happen because of that and ultimately you will always get into a better place. And Always, when people get made redundant, all things like that, everyone always ends up in a better place. It always, nine times month and a half, ninety nine percent of the time people end up in a better place in their career. So, and it's in, it is actually quite an important and things for growth as well, so fast forward a bit. After that I went through some time.

The Trailblazers Experience :

Is there something to be said about resilience? Because you just shared the typical journey of you know we're a similar age of Just having to get on with stuff. I found a lot that my bosses, who were men, more allies to me than the bosses that I had at the time, that women that was all nasty, bitchy, devil, devils, word pop. You know what is going on, but it was so tough back then. But Is there something to be said? Because there are three things you mentioned there one about the fact that you are just really hard working and you got on with stuff and that's what, probably one of the reasons that you went from the shop floor to then fashion buying, etc. Etc. But also the personal resilience when dealing with different characters. I think that shows strength in you as well as a person, don't you think?

Sally Heath Minto :

Yeah, and I think you know we didn't consciously go into doing that at that stage. It was just part of the environment. It was what it was, it was expected and you can only reflect on that. But as an example, so you know, post all of that I actually had a couple of jobs and one of the things I really realize that one of the jobs that I actually hated it was the wrong environment and therefore wasn't that good at it, but it was actually the role where I met my husband so I do know on a business trip. So actually now I know that I was meant to do that job. Just please meet him, because I'm a great believer in faith, actually.

Sally Heath Minto :

But anyway, but the next job after that is I was actually gonna take some time out and then I saw my friend told me a job about a role at New look at an online brands role. So they wanted to set up Brands online because they were heavily visited an ASOS and next were the leading websites at the time and what they didn't have was an external brands off. So but I joined to fill a for twelve weeks to set it up because somebody else was a bit delayed joining that job and I ended up staying for six years and left that business as e-commerce director, which was completely different to what I started, and it's an example of going with the flow, taking the opportunity that might be there just because you fancied it. I didn't plan that at all, but in the middle of it, you know, it wasn't a linear. It wasn't a linear journey because within quite a quick period of time within less than two years, you look decided not to do that particular project anymore and it left me a limbo. But at the time my husband was setting up his business and personally we run to a lot of financial duress at that particular time, and which is a whole nother podcast, actually, but anyway.

Sally Heath Minto :

So I needed to keep my job because I had to keep me know. I've got three step kids and they were quite young at the time. We had to, you know, clothing, feed them and all that sort of stuff. So I had a job that just wasn't yet that I wasn't enjoying. I didn't have a role. I was relatively well paid, but I didn't have a function really and I actually in the end of it and I would start interviewing elsewhere. But I knew that I just had to keep going because for the needs of my family, but then I went to the CEO and just sit him, listen, you're not using me. You know I'm about to take a job at one of your competitors and you're not using me. I could be doing so much more and go back to that kind of tangible sales thing.

Sally Heath Minto :

The one thing that got me when I started working in e-commerce and obviously because I was dealing with external brands needed to make sure that the way we were selling Was correct and appropriate. I got really fascinated in the how and how different e-commerce was and I absolutely loved it. You know the fact that Data can help to drive proper decision making. This, I'm emotional. This guy did on customer behavior and actual facts rather than buying, which is actually quite a lot of time.

Sally Heath Minto :

Instinct, what went on last year and what, whatever, whatever. You know who's got the loudest mouth? It was so you know. So it was so great and I was starting to edge in and I was going to do what I can do this. I'm a retailer.

Sally Heath Minto :

All I know Is that an e-commerce you know your website is a big fat shop. The same principles of the same you got to attract people in. Remove all the barriers, try to nail them into a sale and then complete that without any friction and out without a queue. You know all this, principles are there, so I fundamentally understood it anyway. In fact, in fairness to him, he gave me that chance and all the people actually did give me the chances even previously at my role all saints and USC, all men right, they were the ones that went. You know what? All right, then go and do it now. Obviously. Obviously I had to walk the walk and I did on several occasions, but the women in my career would always the ones that held me back, you know the more senior women with the ones that helped me.

Sally Heath Minto :

And that is really now it's infuriating Now, obviously, I came from a time when that was more prevalent, I would say, than it is now.

Sally Heath Minto :

So when I became a senior leader at New Look, it was incredibly important to me to make sure that the female talent in our business was heard, recognized and supported and pushed up.

Sally Heath Minto :

And I'm still so proud every day of all the women that I've ever worked with me, and also the men as well, because I love them too. Let's not exclude them. But team is incredibly important, I think, probably as an offshoot of the flight PTSD we had from working in those areas, team for me and supporting team generally and not being a nightmare boss and shouting and all this sort of stuff and being supportive and understanding. And I'm giving people time time for them to tell you what's wrong and how you can help them. It's so, so important and you know I'm really lucky that I have amazing relationships with everyone that's worked with me over time and still I just looked at so much pride the way their careers have moved on. Some have worked with me since, some have gone on to have amazing careers, and every single one of them I look. I follow a lot of people on social media and I'm just like, oh, my little cubs.

The Trailblazers Experience :

And that's how we should be, sally. There's so much to be said about, you know, not just resilience, and there's no. Sometimes you just have to take a chance and take a job without having a grand plan. You talked about that, and then also the whole thing about you strike me as someone who's always been right. I'm curious about retail, I'm curious about e-commerce and I just want to get on with stuff. And the fact that you said you had to keep on working because bills had to be paid Thank God you've actually said that, because sometimes we have all these influences on Instagram saying give up your job, go for what you want, and sometimes the reality is you need to stay in where you are for a certain period of time before you can move forward. Exactly, and I think also just on that point as well.

Sally Heath Minto :

I think it's really important to recognize that to learn a role or a job takes a bit of time. I think the tendency now is for people to feel like they need to move around very quickly, but you can't speed up time and experience is gained over time. So there should always be some kind of element of you being committed to something for a period of time to really learn. You know to be around people that are doing the job already, that are more senior to you, to understand how to do that. You know to do that and you know I guess that comes back to the kind of working from home, you know sort of phenomena that we're seeing with younger generations. You know like it's madness to me how in your 20s you can be remote, working full time. How are you learning anything? I agree, hybrid work in the pandemic has been monumentally beneficial for women working in any environment now, because flexibility is now not something that is found upon but it's something that is expected and embraced, which is great. But there is also a potential swing too much the other way.

Sally Heath Minto :

You know, my oldest step-dolts is fully remote at 25. I'm like, how does that even work? How is she getting friends at work? How is she gaining relationships with people? How is she learning from people more senior than her? You know, you're like a sponge when you're that age, aren't you? You're sucking everything up and learning how to be. I knew how to be a fabulous fashion buyer because of my fabulous fashion buyer boss. You know what I mean it's like. How do you learn these things if you're not there collaborating with people around you? So that is one of the things that I would probably say that needs to be really looked at and you know people should be thinking of that particularly early stages of their career is that how can I get the best of both worlds?

The Trailblazers Experience :

That is so true. I think you know, learning by seeing, learning by doing, learning by experiencing is the best teacher, and I guess you and I had to go through the hot calls of fire of businesses doing it wrong to actually learn and be able to empower I think it's inspiring that, once you reach the senior position, you said right, this is how I want to lead, these are the things that matter to me, and I will empower you know, give women, men, everyone, a voice so that they can rise above.

Sally Heath Minto :

Yeah exactly, and you know, I would say that as well the ability to lead. It takes years. You know, the ability to understand how to be a good leader. I wasn't. I wasn't one when I was in my, you know, early late 20s.

Sally Heath Minto :

Early, you know, I had to soften up myself. I had to, I had to learn that, you know, and I'm very proud of my own personal journey in that and recognizing all that. But I had to sort of let go some of the stuff that had happened to me. You know, like this Stockholm syndrome thing, you know you kind of or whatever, you know you kind of copy what's gone before and I had to shake that off. But that didn't, that didn't happen overnight.

Sally Heath Minto :

So you know these things is, you know you shouldn't ever beat yourself up about, you know, the journey that you've been on and your personal, you know, experience to get to a certain position is because actually all of it is great experience. All of it is polishing you off and, you know, honing you down to be the person that you are today and you're not going to get all of it right, but just persisting and going and try and every day trying to be that bit better and then ultimately, you know you will be. So you know I've great belief in you. Know, just move forward, move forward, try and grab life, try to be that person, but don't overthink it too much. It's a long life.

The Trailblazers Experience :

For sure. Let's talk about challenges of being a woman in senior leadership or just being a woman in general in the industry Is there, you know, one or two probably face a few challenges that you think, okay, this is what this taught me and how could that lesson support some young person out there?

Sally Heath Minto :

Yeah. So I think that women fundamentally have to try and shake off this imposter syndrome. I think that you know is we all still have this thing inside us where we still think that the oldest person in the room, and maybe the man in the room who's got loads of balls, can you know, can dictate the right way. And you know you have to. It took me a long time, actually, particularly maybe the age thing, maybe not so much maybe the gender thing, but more like the age thing that oh okay, this person is more senior than me, so they should know better. You know that is is something that you need to start to learn, to have confidence in your own Experiences and views and how you influence around that. I mean it is funny that, even though, as I keep saying that the retail industry predominantly has mostly women working in it, certainly a more junior levels and then Ground roots, still has this thing where you know I'd be in a WhatsApp group or and to get an email from in, you know, the senior team in a high gents. I was like, oh hello, by the way, I'm not one, you know, that kind of you know boys club thing still still went on. But I guess one of the things and what that a conscious decision that I made was that I knew that for me to have a more linear career, I needed to not have children too early, and I know that sounds now desperately old fashioned, but it was actually quite realistic, and I think women do make these decisions, that women that then had babies at some point during their 30s had to make some sacrifices. So if I go back to the hardcore women who never had children and then maybe regretted it Later on when the industry spat them out, you know my generation then said, well, actually we do want to have children, so then did and found that their careers got very interrupted and that their own personal develop. You know, journey to the top, for example, was much more challenging and because then they had to balance two lives essentially, and of course there was still a very much an element for a long time that you know, if you were the first in the office and the last to leave, that actually that was a good thing right, that that showed dedication, that you were committed to the job, and what I'm really thankful about is that those, those thoughts are starting to change, because it's all about actually Productivity and actually the CEO and you look at the time he said to me goes well, I love employing, you know, women with children, because I do think they're more productive in the sense that you know they have that More limited amount of time so they get stuff done. However, the fact we even had to have that conversation in that way just now feels just kind of grim, if you see what I mean.

Sally Heath Minto :

So I did have a panic child at 40. Literally I got to 40. I was like, oh my god, right, I need to, I need to make a conscious decision now, and I knew that I couldn't do it Previously. I couldn't do that to become a director. And it's true, I went all the way and I became a director within New Luke and I was really proud of that. But I knew even at that time that I wouldn't have been able to balance the two very well and, and particularly with the, with a husband that was building a business at the time. So, recognizing that, now you know I don't know how to Really say how we make that that more perfect, other than the fact that you know, more flexible working, more recognition of time, that people and the flexibility. I still find people struggling now. So they're like, oh, my business won't be flexible about the time that I need to go here and there, and I know, because I do have a six-year-old now, how difficult it is. I have the privilege now of deciding when I'm going to work, but I don't want to work Mondays anymore, I don't want to work Fridays anymore and I want to work the hours within the days that I can, because I know that what I I can be responsible for, what I deliver, but that's just not an option for people still. So I do think that it's still very much a challenge for women to to to balance out their own personal ambitions To have a family, which is obviously a great thing to do, and then obviously Then to balance that out with the needs of a business. You know, I think that there is still a disconnect between the lot and it's going to still take us a while to get through that.

Sally Heath Minto :

What is incredibly important is that cultural fits of people are right. So what I don't mean is people's backgrounds, but what I mean is, culturally, their spirit. So I have tried time and again and I have now absolutely convinced of this that if someone isn't a cultural fit for your team. No matter how technically good they are at their job, you cannot have them continuing because of the detrimental effect they could have on the team around them. So you need to have a cultural fit of people within your team that complement each other. That's not people that are the same that's not what I'm saying Not just me too of people, because otherwise, one viewpoint and everyone that says yes, yes, only one people that say yes to me. What you need is a group of people that are all very different, with different skill sets, that all complement each other and that culturally, are very similar.

Sally Heath Minto :

And there is a famous expression as well that I often use, which is I'd rather have a hole than an asshole.

Sally Heath Minto :

I'm not entirely sure who actually originally said this, but I know it came by a guy called Richard who started innocent drinks, but he wasn't the originator of this. He uses it and I thought you know what that actually makes a lot of sense. People are so fearful of having a gap in their team when somebody's leaving that they go. Oh god, we just need to find the first person on. We find this. Oh, they'll do, but they're not quite right. And no, you know, you can figure stuff out, and I think somebody said this in one of your other podcast people can be taught to do things and, generally speaking, most things yeah, most people can do within reason, right, obviously, something not hugely technical. But when you are building a team, do not, you know, do not be tempted to bring someone in that actually is gonna set everybody a job because it just won't work out and then it will be expensive and time-consuming and it will obviously have a negative impact on your team spirit as well.

The Trailblazers Experience :

So I do think that that's a very important thing to say honestly, I echo what you're saying about culture and I think this time what's really great is people actually defining their culture, so they'll say things when you give an interview, saying we're very agile. You know how do you deal with people. Where we make decisions and we change things a lot, we react to the mud. That means you know, if you're someone who's used to working in a certain way and things change, you are not going to survive. You know that. Flexibility when it's buying, we, we work long hours and that's what we do, and then we go and interact with the brands. If that's something that you're not willing to do and that's not the job for you, I think that is so right. Technical skills you know there's so many there but the camaraderie, the resilience, getting on with people, those are not things that can be taught and some businesses just need a different gel mix of people to make it work.

Sally Heath Minto :

Exactly, and I do think now what has fundamentally changed in a generation is that people are now looking to work for companies where they Align with the business values. You know. Back in the day you know you would take a job because it was the job and how much it paid didn't give a two hoots about what the value, the values of QVC, I don't know. I won't be able to tell you that now because I don't think we were ever told, but you know it didn't matter.

The Trailblazers Experience :

Yeah, well, you see, we created, but we created our own.

Sally Heath Minto :

We created our own brand values of, you know, having a good time, but anyway, but the but, the but.

Sally Heath Minto :

When I started recruiting, when I joined revolution, it was interesting how many people were so interested in working with us because of what we stood for, and that was a fundamental cultural change. When it comes to To building a team, you know is and also having a brand, you need to have something that your business stands for. But when you know, in the world where there are so many brands, so many things, so many things that are being sold to people every day, you need to have that cut through of what do we stand for, why do we exist, what is the, what are we, what is our purpose and what are we doing for people. But it also goes to the workplace as well. It's like you know, if I, you know, if I've got this business, what am I doing to create an environment where people want to come and work here? And and that has fundamentally changed it's not just about money. It's lots of, but it's lots of things now. It's the whole package.

The Trailblazers Experience :

Definitely I mean lots of nuggets there, just for Anyone out there just looking at their career is that progression is not linear and just aligning yourself with the business where Because we spend, you know, 80% or more of our time at work, so it just needs to all gel and sometimes just getting on with stuff is the best way to go. So let's sidestep pivot. You work for businesses, large organizations, and then you decide to join. Was it a startup at the time when you decided to go into beauty? Well, no actually.

Sally Heath Minto :

So revolution is now ten years old and I started in twenty eighteen, so it obviously gone through its initial kind of entrepreneurial start up stage and Revolution really did as the word it was actually designed to. The word revolution, conceived around our kitchen table, was designed to actually revolutionize the beauty industry because the feeling was that beauty is very elitist, right. So you only had luxury on one end, which was quality was only through luxury, and then you had cheap cosmetics. But there wasn't much in between and I was very passionate about making beautiful products, great quality products the fish is products Actually affordable, came to market, completely disrupted things and one of the things that now obviously everybody takes for granted Was how much it drove and change the industry in inclusion and diversity.

Sally Heath Minto :

So we were the first mass beauty brand to have fifty shades of concealer. So everyone talks about venting all that sort of stuff, but actually the first ones, and now all the brands, you know this is more, this is normal. Now, this was, but that wasn't normal then. You know, this was. You know, if you know, women in color had, you know, had very, didn't have anywhere to go on the high street for.

The Trailblazers Experience :

Yeah, we look very happy before, I mean when I was doing makeup.

Sally Heath Minto :

Which now seems absolutely nuts, doesn't? It's like it's incredible that that wasn't ever dealt with beforehand, but anyway it's. You know, and it was a, it was very central, that's. You know our products anyone could use man, woman. You know it could be for everybody, price point wise, you know, performance wise, you know that anybody can walk in and they can find something within our brand. So that was very much the the essence.

Sally Heath Minto :

So when I joined Add my dream trying to get me to come along for a long time, and I was like I can't work with you. You're my husband, you're really annoying. I don't think there's any way that I can do that. We're very alpha Personalities, you know, but we're both areas born within a week of each other I was like, oh my god, this is just never gonna work out. I was so wrong about that and I will put my hands up about that and say that was probably one of the wrongest things I've ever been wrong about, in the fact that, actually, when you are working together, you fundamentally have a level of trust that you don't have when you're working with in somebody else's business, and you've always got each other's backs and you're able to be brutally honest with each other behind the scenes. You wouldn't do it publicly but you could say, no, you got that wrong, you got that wrong. This is great. You should do more of this. So that's really important. You know I wish that he makes it. I sell it. So you gotta have different roles within that spectrum. But actually working together became really powerful and you start to really enjoy it because you can really trust each other and also I could just let go of performing so generally in.

Sally Heath Minto :

I'm sure a lot of people resonate. This is always playing the game, doing. You know doing this like you know I've got to go in and put my game face on. You gotta do this. You know. If you're in your own environment where you have less of a fear of someone, you know, get rid of you. I suppose you know, or or or be negative, leave you can really act very genuinely. And so everything I ever Did was genuinely only for the good of what I thought should happen, and that was very refreshing because I wasn't trying to be the next year, I wasn't trying to be Land grab, for you know more of the more of control in the bitch. You see what I mean. It was just much more of a pure experience for me. I could be much more relaxed in my role and, you know, look after the parts of the business Adam didn't really have any experience of, so so it was great for a period of time.

The Trailblazers Experience :

What is some stats that say? I was reading an article in sifted talking about businesses that are have got, you know, married partners in there and, like you said, complimentary skill set is a shed for the business. You know they tends to be a clear demarcation of roles and responses. There's also an appreciation, but you know various risk scenarios and, like you said, you know you knew that you are the one who sold the product. I'm going out there and enhance digital and he was on the other side doing his is Leveraging what he was good at in the business. But also you talked about how you have a very strong ability to attract Top talent and I think that there's so many advantages.

Sally Heath Minto :

so I guess you're glad now, years later, that you decided to make well, I think I think what's actually really important is the fact that Us, as a couple, have a common goal and you're going in the same direction together. Where is? If you have separate careers, you can never truly understand the challenges that it is going through. But when you you're going together in the same direction is actually massively helpful for your relationship. And I went into it thinking that would be Detrimental to our relationship, came out of it realizing how important it was for our relationship.

Sally Heath Minto :

So that was really that, and this is what I mean is you know, I've been around a long time but I'm still learning. Every day is a learning day, you know, you never stop learning and that is beautiful. You know, it's wonderful and I would definitely encourage you anyway, cuz I hear it so many times, I couldn't wear my husband or I can't wear my wife. No way actually be surprised how much you could. You know, and that's why I do see that there's so many husband and wife teams or partner teams or you know whatever. So anyway, so yes, I'm a big advocate. Now it has dropped me not sometimes. Obviously, I don't always agree with anything he says last, but that's okay that's very healthy, makes you both human.

The Trailblazers Experience :

yeah, so let's talk about beauty in terms of. I would have never guessed fifteen, twenty years ago in my lifetime that the rise of influence, commerce, social media, would have been the catalyst for diversity. So seeing so many people in different light, so many great businesses have, you know, reason is the result of the other beauty I mean talk about, you know, kim kardashia now and just the rise and how beauty and fashion is just accelerated as a result.

The Trailblazers Experience :

In the context of e-commerce and digital, what were the exciting projects you were part of as digital director that you were like? You know what I did, that and that was really made an impact for the business, but also for you in terms of advancing your skill set as a leader.

Sally Heath Minto :

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, we did. I mean, one of the things that I would say that I was really proud of from a day-to-day perspective is that not a lot of brands were very focused on their D2C right and the beauty space. So, versus other industries, generally speaking, beauty is sold through wholesale into boots or superjug or whatever, and I guess that one of the things that we'd always started from we'd been D2C right from the beginning. But one of the exciting projects was when I joined and we replatformed the site and we had the freedom because it was a smaller business to be able to. You know, when you work for a big business, it's very difficult to get stuff signed off if to go through 17 lines of management, cost benefits. You know business cases for adding any features or any of these sorts of things into the sites, and you know we have much more freedom to be able to just do things because it was ultimately a you know, smaller team and very agile. So I think you know the fact that we had to end it up with a world-class, you know website experience app. You know the content, you know the ability to select products, make decisions, kind of. You know all of the, just the overall experience, the way that the logistics works. You know the end-to-end. We had the loyalty program, which you know it was actually fantastic. You know just really cool stuff that we could have fun with and just put us slightly ahead of everything else. I'm just such a believer in listening to your customers so you know I read Trustpilot every single day because you can always find the nuggets in there of things that your customers are frustrated with, and I guess that you know from. You know we've just obsessed about the customer experience from end-to-end. Any bit of communication. Our CRM was fantastic. You know there were so many cool things that we were doing over that period of time and I think internally as well. It's really important to mention that.

Sally Heath Minto :

One of the things that we really embraced was how do we build our team in the first place? And we built an internal recruitment piece called Revolution Academy where we would look to recruit certain roles every year for underrepresented groups, so that we would, because what we recognized was that change needed to happen from the bottom right. So it's not good enough to say, oh okay, right, we'll just change the diversity appearance of our top team. You can't just do that overnight. There's not necessarily the talent there to do that, and then that can be quite performative.

Sally Heath Minto :

What you've got to do is start investing for the future. So you've got to look at the entry points into your business and say, okay, right, if we're recruiting this role, right, what sort of people do we want to recruit here? Who should we be giving opportunities to? And we opened up certain roles and said we would only consider candidates from certain backgrounds experience, social economic groups, disability, etc. So that only underrepresented groups could apply for those roles, so that, with the fundamental belief that you're then growing talent for the future that then can take those top roles. And I think that's one of the things where outwardly Revolution was always driving its inclusion and diversity approach to products, but also that that lived and breathed inside our business as well. So that's one of the things, from a leadership perspective, that I think that we did really well and really important for the future.

The Trailblazers Experience :

That is so amazing. I mean you've just touched on three amazing things that you've achieved so your business was able to add John, you've done such amazing things to just bring on the digital and the tech of the business forward. But just that piece about starting from the ground up, of how you bring in diverse challenges, making them aware that such roles exist you know a lot of whether it's underprivileged or whatever your socioeconomic background is. Sometimes they don't even have the courage to say I think actually I could apply to this organization and find this role because you know, depending on your situation, sometimes the confidence is not there and you're not seeing people who represent you in that light. So that is massive. That is something that will continue, probably on and part of your legacy, with a career spanning two long decades how do you maintain?

The Trailblazers Experience :

I know You're looking amazing. What does self care look like to you? You know, after going through the different phases, what is self care and work by balance mean to you.

Sally Heath Minto :

Well, one of the things that I promised myself when I left Nulut was that I'd never work on Monday again. When you've worked in retail, mondays are the worst days ever Trade days. You're up early. You've generally looked at your pack on a Sunday. You spend the whole day working out what you're going to say in the trade meeting. So I promised myself I announced it to the whole business that I'd never work on Monday again. Well, the pandemic came and then it started creeping up. So then I ended up five days. But I'm going back to that now. I'm very firmly now in. What we're doing next is saying that's it.

Sally Heath Minto :

I have to be committed to the things that I promised myself, because mentally, after so many years of giving on that day, it sounds a bit nuts to people outside of retail. Why, well, who cares about Monday? Mondays are just like that. I mean, I love working Fridays. Weirdly, friday's a great day to work because you're so optimistic about the weekends. But for me, mentally, that works and it's all about just finding those things that just help you.

Sally Heath Minto :

My favorite sport is scrolling on the websites for clothes. I love clothes so much Clothes, shoes, bags it's sport to me, so literally I find that incredibly relaxing to just go through and just get inspiration. Just look, you know, I just I could do hours of that. It just I can. I can just switch off One of the reasons why I'm so honest about it. I'm so passionate about online customers experience because I do spend a lot of time shopping online as well and I can come at it from that particular point. But literally I do find it is research plus relaxation. But from a moment, I do walk a lot. We've got two pugs, so I do walk out and walk and you know we always talk about how walking is so powerful mentally because it's just moving forward. So after a walk, the fact that you've propelled yourself forward can actually really help to clear your mind because you've just got up and moved and how powerful that can be.

Sally Heath Minto :

I'd love to say I do lots of reading but I never get enough time. But I have the ambition. I'm just reading the Brittany book. Actually, I just I'm just speed reading Brittany's autobiography. Yeah, it's worth a read, but it doesn't take very long. I love I'll have done that by today.

Sally Heath Minto :

And then I guess the other thing that I really do like to do is I like to go to Ibiza and I like to dance a lot. So you're quite, I'll quite happily dance all day and all night in a club just having fun, because it's just so good for the soul to dance, and I will be dancing into my grave, I think. So I very much. Work hard, play hard. That very much resonates for me, but those are the things that I do to kind of balance things out. But I think it is. It's a how do you want to work? You know what makes it work for you, because you'll be so much better at it if you just fit it around in the way. And we should be a bit more. Particularly, our stage of life is much more descriptive about what that is, because ultimately, if your soul is happy, then everything else just goes along with it, doesn't it?

The Trailblazers Experience :

circling back. We're now in the final stage, time to share your trailblazer takeaway tips, advice.

Sally Heath Minto :

Well, so exactly that there will be jobs and industries that don't exist yet. So if you're starting your career, go with the flow. You know, don't overthink it. Go with the flow. I sometimes think of my career like a river meandering around you know. Just you know, take the opportunities, be the best you can and be dedicated, but just don't think you need to have a grand plan.

Sally Heath Minto :

I think that leadership is developed over a long, long time. Be a sponge, be around people that are already doing your job, have done your job, ask them, be around them, suck it up. Osmosis, I call it. You know it's like I was a sponge. I learned how to be, but I'm read, you know, and you learn how not to be as well as have to be. Just let's face it. So you learn where people are making mistakes as much as whether they're doing good things. So it's extremely important to be around people that will help to shape you in your later life. And, you know, find something you love, because doing something you love it does sound a bit cliche, but if you find something you love, it won't feel too much like work really.

The Trailblazers Experience :

Sally, it's been an honor and pleasure having you on the podcast. So many pearls of wisdom, such a, you know, dynamic life that you have lived and continue to live, and I really will be watching the next phase of your journey and I'm certain that you will inspire someone with your story on this podcast.

Sally Heath Minto :

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure and I really enjoyed talking to you, and let's meet for a glass of wine soon, oh yeah, we need to do that, for sure, for sure.

The Trailblazers Experience :

So, for the audience, this has been the Trail of the Lasers Experience podcast and see you next time. Bye.